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I've found a simpler way to fix ballistics. What do you think?

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  09:53:22  31 October 2009
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stalkerStalker
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/15/2009
Messages: 47
I've found a simpler way to fix ballistics. What do you think?

Hi all,

I like to keep the game as close to developer intent as possible.

I won't use a mod that improves one thing but makes another thing worse, and I won't use a mod that isn't complete.


So, I've been rather unsatisfied with the ballistics mods for CS, because:
-they change too many variables
-they improve some gunplay aspects, but make some aspects worse/unrealistic
-they break the upgrade system: upgrades become useless/unnoticable or backfire reducing accuracy


I'm happy to have found a much simpler fix to the ballistics problem:

--in weapons.ltx--
hit_probability_max_dist = 1000001
k_dist = 1000000 (for each ammo)


This achieves the following:

1) bullets do not dissapear in mid-air (they fall until they hit the ground - as seen in real life)
2) "dice rolls" are removed (physics and how good you aim, not random chance, decide if your bullet hits its target - as seen in real life)


-now you can shoot bullets straight up and they fall and hit the ground
-you can now get long shots by aiming up and adjusting for bullet drop

-this is just like real life now, GSC already had all the weapon velocities, bullet weight, drop speed, piercing, etc. about right

-now, when i shoot a pistol at a guy over 30 yards away, the bullet dosen't dissapear in air
-it will either hit the guy, or hit the ground (in which case you need to aim higher)


So, will you try it out and tell me what you think?

Do maybe some of the peircing values and hit damages need to be adjusted?
  11:23:52  31 October 2009
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Reptile4077
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 01/10/2009
Messages: 248
Yeah, adjusting the ammo is much more important then adjusting the guns. Do you really just changed this two strings? Then the "fire_distance" in the weapon-files is worthless....
But your right, the bullets would normally drop if they would just disappear in vanilla.
I think that wouldnt be enough to "fix" the ballistics though, the NPCs would still take up to 1 + 1/2 mag to be killed, but thats just personal
preference ^^
  12:06:49  31 October 2009
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stalkerStalker
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/15/2009
Messages: 47

---QUOTATION---
Yeah, adjusting the ammo is much more important then adjusting the guns. Do you really just changed this two strings? Then the "fire_distance" in the weapon-files is worthless....
But your right, the bullets would normally drop if they would just disappear in vanilla.
I think that wouldnt be enough to "fix" the ballistics though, the NPCs would still take up to 1 + 1/2 mag to be killed, but thats just personal
preference ^^
---END QUOTATION---




Hmm, good point, and thanks for the reply.
--Removing the probability does make enemies die much faster.

Right now I'm testing on Master and I'm in the Cordon. Leather jacket guys seem to go down in 4-5 bullets from an mp5 or ak74su.

In a Clear Sky Faction Assault armor I die pretty fast too in Master.


Yeah the fire distance is complete rubbish, and I have absolutely no idea why GSC put it in.
--All it does it cut off the end of the bullet's trajectory.

When you make fire distance essentially infinite, the bullets fall and hit the ground, and you get a realistic max distance that way.


I guess its all down to personal preference, but can anyone infer from experience if the vanilla peircing through wood, objects metals is realistic?
Maybe the armor piercing too?
  12:49:20  31 October 2009
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smoq2
Forklift operator
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 09/08/2008
 

Message edited by:
smoq2
10/31/2009 12:49:41
Messages: 2433

---QUOTATION---
Right now I'm testing on Master and I'm in the Cordon. Leather jacket guys seem to go down in 4-5 bullets from an mp5 or ak74su.
---END QUOTATION---



Did you test it properly? Cause from what I know Stalker the hit probability constant("dice roll" as you called it) is used for determining "lucky" headshots and changing it should have no impact on how much damage an NPC takes from a single bullet. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, but please check if it's not some other change you've made that effets how many shots it takes to take down a badie.
  15:17:11  31 October 2009
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chuppa
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 04/11/2008
 

Message edited by:
chuppa
10/31/2009 15:19:59
Messages: 409
stalkerStalker - you've gone down a path I've intended to look into for a while - ie. I've contemplated the merit of setting distance to either uniform very high value or real world values for each ammo (ie. try and track down "best case" ballistic performance figures for each) - and then using the air resistance config value to refine the behaviour of each.

More work would also then be required on dispersion behaviour as that would become even more critical than it is with truncated range behaviour.

Using air resistance is something I've already successfully used to make buckshot work in a very realistic way - ie. inside 2 - 3 meters it's deadly against mutants or lightly armoured npc's but beyond 3 meters it's effectiveness falls off drastically. I'm using a value of 10.5 for buckshot.

I think you're on a winner and should go for it!!
  00:51:08  1 November 2009
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stalkerStalker
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/15/2009
Messages: 47

---QUOTATION---
Right now I'm testing on Master and I'm in the Cordon. Leather jacket guys seem to go down in 4-5 bullets from an mp5 or ak74su.

Did you test it properly? Cause from what I know Stalker the hit probability constant("dice roll" as you called it) is used for determining "lucky" headshots and changing it should have no impact on how much damage an NPC takes from a single bullet. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, but please check if it's not some other change you've made that effets how many shots it takes to take down a badie.
---END QUOTATION---



I haven't changed anything else, and from what I can tell, it dosen't seem to affect headshots at all.
--I haven't seen guys go down in one shot unless I specifically aim for the the head.

--that and I've tested it by firing just at the body, from up close and far away, and it seems to simply make it so that all bullets are counted as real
-then the bullets just follow their trajectory
-without changing the dice roll, some bullets that follow their trajectory and hit just are not counted...like they dissapear

-i even tested firing bullets straight into the air...and from what i can tell...leaving the dice roll means that some bullets just dissapear...as they don't fall back down
--with the dice roll gone (prob. dist. greater than k_dist) all the bullets fall back down and hit the ground

- the end result, enemies just die faster as all the bullets that hit, hit
  01:02:52  1 November 2009
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stalkerStalker
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/15/2009
Messages: 47

---QUOTATION---
stalkerStalker - you've gone down a path I've intended to look into for a while - ie. I've contemplated the merit of setting distance to either uniform very high value or real world values for each ammo (ie. try and track down "best case" ballistic performance figures for each) - and then using the air resistance config value to refine the behaviour of each.

More work would also then be required on dispersion behaviour as that would become even more critical than it is with truncated range behaviour.

Using air resistance is something I've already successfully used to make buckshot work in a very realistic way - ie. inside 2 - 3 meters it's deadly against mutants or lightly armoured npc's but beyond 3 meters it's effectiveness falls off drastically. I'm using a value of 10.5 for buckshot.

I think you're on a winner and should go for it!!
---END QUOTATION---




The thing I'm worried about is that I don't know specifically what air resistance does - I mean I don't know it's scale.
--How much hit damage does x air reistance does it remove at y distance?
-And even if I did know, I wouldn't know what to compare it to in real life.

As it is, the buckshot is air resist at 3 or something...and it already has such a dispersion that it dosen't seem to affect anything at a distance.

I have a problem with CS's whole gun settings anyway...
--Why do the pistols all have the same damage and accuracy?...drives me nuts
--Why do all the rifles hardly vary in stats as well?

I guess this is because CS is about upgarding but eh.


I wonder if restoring all the damage, velocity, accuracy, handling values back to SHOC values and then putting the infinite range would be a good mod, any thoughts on this?
  01:48:41  1 November 2009
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chuppa
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 04/11/2008
 

Message edited by:
chuppa
11/01/2009 1:51:00
Messages: 409
Yeah, I have to admit I yust kept increasing air resistance for Buckshot until I got the desired result ingame - and that's exactly what's slowed my getting into it with the other ammo types - ie. it would need to be an adjust it / try it exercise for god knows how many times for EACH ammo to get it right. Not impossible but I just hadn't got round to sparing the time yet.

The sort of thing I'd be trying to do for example is making 9.18 rounds so that their effectiveness is maximum at maybe 40 meters but by 70 it will take several consecutive hits to knock down an unarmoured npc. And so forth for each ammo in turn according to what it should be capable of - ie. for 5.56 make the effective distance to be something like 700 etc. - a lot of work involved!

I made Buckshot itself a LOT more powerful - pretty much a "kill all" - which caused issues with getting even a few particle hits at range - so that's why I had to then venture into the air resistance side of things - and it's worked GREAT! Anyone and anything shot at pretty much contact distance is going to die - but by 3 meters forget it.

You're spot on with hit_probability_max_dist - I put out Normal Accuracy for SoC when I discovered what was happening - just ignore any naysayers - we're right and they're not I have to say that I haven't touched the global value in weapons.ltx but for each weapon I've set the values to 1.0 across the board.

The same same stats for un upgraded weapons are a pain - I tweaked them very early in the piece to establish a clear variation between types in their un upgraded form - but initially I didn't want to have to mess with the upgrades confgis as well so was very conservative. The values I've used are pretty decent and make some rifles somewhat more effective when fully upgraded than they otherwise would be but it's not too bad. My intention was to go back thru it all including the upgrades but just haven't got there yet. My current configs are in my Chuppa Clear Sky mod on filefront.

Something to be careful of with regard to importing SoC base dispersions is the scaling is very different between the two games - ie. an AK74 dispersion value of maybe 0.30 as used in SoC will be VERY accurate in CS - which needs to use a value more like 0.90 for the same real dispersion....
  02:03:21  1 November 2009
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smoq2
Forklift operator
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 09/08/2008
Messages: 2433

---QUOTATION---
I haven't changed anything else, and from what I can tell, it dosen't seem to affect headshots at all.
--I haven't seen guys go down in one shot unless I specifically aim for the the head.

--that and I've tested it by firing just at the body, from up close and far away, and it seems to simply make it so that all bullets are counted as real
-then the bullets just follow their trajectory
-without changing the dice roll, some bullets that follow their trajectory and hit just are not counted...like they dissapear

-i even tested firing bullets straight into the air...and from what i can tell...leaving the dice roll means that some bullets just dissapear...as they don't fall back down
--with the dice roll gone (prob. dist. greater than k_dist) all the bullets fall back down and hit the ground

- the end result, enemies just die faster as all the bullets that hit, hit
---END QUOTATION---



Fair enough. If you say it works then it has to.

I'm not fond of ballistics mods because of the reasons you stated in your first post. But since you came up with an alternative solution this one cought my attention. I might have been mistaken with "hit_probability_max_dist" since I'm not that good with configs, scripting is my field. Then again, I suspected that some hits are just imitations and no health amount is substracted from NPC's total. Damn cheating GSC. Looking forward to your final conclusions as it is something I might use in TFW.
  02:18:04  1 November 2009
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stalkerStalker
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/15/2009
Messages: 47

---QUOTATION---
Yeah, I have to admit I yust kept increasing air resistance for Buckshot until I got the desired result ingame - and that's exactly what's slowed my getting into it with the other ammo types - ie. it would need to be an adjust it / try it exercise for god knows how many times for EACH ammo to get it right. Not impossible but I just hadn't got round to sparing the time yet.

The sort of thing I'd be trying to do for example is making 9.18 rounds so that their effectiveness is maximum at maybe 40 meters but by 70 it will take several consecutive hits to knock down an unarmoured npc. And so forth for each ammo in turn according to what it should be capable of - ie. for 5.56 make the effective distance to be something like 700 etc. - a lot of work involved!

I made Buckshot itself a LOT more powerful - pretty much a "kill all" - which caused issues with getting even a few particle hits at range - so that's why I had to then venture into the air resistance side of things - and it's worked GREAT! Anyone and anything shot at pretty much contact distance is going to die - but by 3 meters forget it.

You're spot on with hit_probability_max_dist - I put out Normal Accuracy for SoC when I discovered what was happening - just ignore any naysayers - we're right and they're not I have to say that I haven't touched the global value in weapons.ltx but for each weapon I've set the values to 1.0 across the board.

The same same stats for un upgraded weapons are a pain - I tweaked them very early in the piece to establish a clear variation between types in their un upgraded form - but initially I didn't want to have to mess with the upgrades confgis as well so was very conservative. The values I've used are pretty decent and make some rifles somewhat more effective when fully upgraded than they otherwise would be but it's not too bad. My intention was to go back thru it all including the upgrades but just haven't got there yet. My current configs are in my Chuppa Clear Sky mod on filefront.

Something to be careful of with regard to importing SoC base dispersions is the scaling is very different between the two games - ie. an AK74 dispersion value of maybe 0.30 as used in SoC will be VERY accurate in CS - which needs to use a value more like 0.90 for the same real dispersion....
---END QUOTATION---



Yeah that makes a lot of sense with buckshot.
-Always pains me when I unload 5-6 shells into a military guy up close and he keeps on walking at me. Its absolutely obscene.

You know, games as a whole are becoming so annoying. Graphics are getting so much more realistic, but then ai and damage simultion are so lacking.

I want someone to model a body with parts, and physically model 3d bullet collision, so we get what actually happens when smeone gets shot.

NO more configs, just a real body, and a real bullet, let physics decide how the guy gets impulsed, clutches in pain, etc.


Of cours what I'm saying is I want a completely modeleed human body complete with nervous system....obviously this is a long way off.
 
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