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Official Ballistics Mod discusion thread

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  00:03:30  12 November 2008
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Elementlmage
Sanity is the state of mind that you believe in sanity
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 04/08/2007
 

Message edited by:
Elementlmage
11/12/2008 1:14:05
Messages: 258
Since you didn't look at it the first time I'll post the article:


---QUOTATION---
Testing by combat surgeon Col. Martin L. Fackler, MD (USA Medical Corps, retired), determined that M193 and M855 bullets need to strike flesh at 2,700 feet per second in order to reliably fragment. Between 2,500 fps and 2,700 fps, the bullet may or may not fragment and below 2,500 fps, no significant fragmentation is likely to occur. If there isn't enough velocity to cause fragmentation, the result is a deep, 22 caliber hole, except an area where the yawing occurred, where the diameter of the hole grows briefly to the length of the bullet.
---END QUOTATION---

-http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammo_Oracle_Mirror.htm#m855zero

Muzzle velocities for all 5.56 rifles found in Stalker:

G36: 920 m/s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G36

Sig 550: 980 m/s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sig_550

You may also want to note that only the Swiss version shoots 5.6. The export versions are available in 5.56 with either 1:10 or 1:7 twist.

F2000: 900 m/s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F2000

LR 300: 950 m/s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LR_300

Distance for an M855 round traveling at 3100 f/s (~20in) to reach 2700 f/s:

150m

And for 3000 f/s (~16in):

90m


---QUOTATION---
SS109 and M855 are not the same. They were in the beginning, now the difference is much biger - If you ever wanted to use 5.56 ammo, you always want to go with best quality ammo - M855 has much higher quality requirements than SS109.
---END QUOTATION---



Which explains why the steel cap in the M855 tends to unbalance the the round.


---QUOTATION---
Q. What is SS-109? Is it the same as M855?

SS-109 is Fabrique Nationale's (FN's) name for their 61.5 grain bullet with the steel penetrator in the nose and what they call rounds loaded with this bullet. (FN calls M193-type ammo "SS-92." The US military's M855 round is loaded with the SS-109 bullet, though the US military has additional specifications that ammo must meet before it can be called M855. So, while all M855 is loaded with SS-109 bullets, all "SS-109 ammo" will not meet the M855 specs. For example, the British purposely underloaded some lots of their ammo in an effort to get their L85A1 (SA80) rifles to cycle properly. The ammo is still loaded with SS-109 bullets and labeled as SS-109, but it is nowhere near the M855 velocity specifications.
---END QUOTATION---

-http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammo_Oracle_Mirror.htm#ss109

The projectile is the same, the completed bullet (projectile and casing) is different.


---QUOTATION---
Wow, that one made me lol. The are the EXACT same bullet(notice I said bullet.) The SS109 bullet is used in both the SS109 and the m855. The only difference is that the SS109 has a lower powder load to keep from damaging the Brit's L85s.
---END QUOTATION---



;;;;;;;;;


The 5.45(7n6) and 5.56 are both excellent rounds and each have their strong suits. The 5.56 in my mind is undoubtedly the superior close combat round. However, with most modern fire arms once get out beyond 100m they really start to lose their effectiveness.

I would love to see a comparison between the M855 the M995 and the 7n24. Mostly b/c although the 7n24 has it's weight increased it seems to improve its base velocity a little bit(most likely b/c of newer propellants). Since they would all be more or less 62 grains it would be interesting to see what their terminal and ballistic effects would be.



-Edit-

Adding nade sights back in is turning out to be a GIGANTIC bitch. I took me an hour just to get the widescreen sights aligned for the lr 300. So for now, that is getting put on the back burner. Right now I am testing the changes I made to the upgrades and making sure they are all working properly and then preparing the latest version for release.


-Edit--Edit-

Make no mistake Jam, I greatly enjoy these exchanges. Nothing is better for testing your knowledge than matching wits with someone else. Hmm, let me see if I can find a Steven Colbert pic...


Woot:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/wikiality/images/thumb/d/d6/RedTieBlueTieSideBySide.jpg/300px-RedTieBlueTieSideBySide.jpg


-Edit-Edit-Edit

Minor setback.... a 6 day demo for Left4Dead has just been released.
  01:11:16  12 November 2008
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wolfstriked
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 11/02/2008
Messages: 283
AK74 vs AK74U.....since the AK74U is lighter and shorter it should have more recoil.

cam_dispersion is .1 difference for the AK74....is that enuff?

Then cam_dispersion_inc is lower for the AK74U....should be opposite....as is now after first shot the AK74 has more recoil.

Is there something I can change to prevent the recoil being reset.If so,do you feel that its unrealistic and should be keptthe way it is now?

Keep it going!!!!
  01:19:14  12 November 2008
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Elementlmage
Sanity is the state of mind that you believe in sanity
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 04/08/2007
 

Message edited by:
Elementlmage
11/12/2008 1:20:41
Messages: 258
cam_relax_speed = 3.5


Set that to zero for both the normal and zoom_cam_relax_speed


Also, in this latest version, the U has a little bit more recoil. Not much though as both the 5.45 and 5.56 have very little kick.


-edit-

AGHHHH!!!! KMON!!!! 500KBps IS NOT FAST ENOUGH FOR THE GLORY THAT IS VALVE!!!!
  04:34:32  12 November 2008
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marlin
(Novice)
 
On forum: 02/24/2008
Messages: 43

---QUOTATION---

-Edit-

Adding nade sights back in is turning out to be a GIGANTIC bitch. I took me an hour just to get the widescreen sights aligned for the lr 300. So for now, that is getting put on the back burner. Right now I am testing the changes I made to the upgrades and making sure they are all working properly and then preparing the latest version for release.


---END QUOTATION---



Why can't you just copy the SOC settings??
  09:04:23  12 November 2008
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JaM1977
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/24/2008
 

Message edited by:
JaM1977
11/12/2008 9:24:30
Messages: 21
there is no steel cap in M855, it has a steel core penetrator inside of projectile. Every bullet is build to be unstable and tends to fly with back first - thats why they are spin stabilized - air doesnt make enough of resistance to stop spining so they will fly normally,but immediatly when projectile strikes flesh, projectile spinning stops and it continue backwards producing tumbling effect.


http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammo_Oracle_Mirror_files/m855.jpg

The only way how M855 would be unstable in the air is if you wire it from wifle with slow rifling like old M16A1 - those rifles are not able to stabilize M855 properly and have extremly poor accuracy with it - it is even notrecomended to use M855 with riflind below 1:10 - all US carbines and rifles have rifling 1:7.


Oh, one thing LR-300 has a short barrell - there is no way it could fire bullet at 950m/s with 292mm 11.5" barrell its muzzle velocity is barelly 900m/s more close to 860.

btw, would be great to have M262 Mod1 in game - is year 2011, so that ammo should be normally available but cost much more than standard issue ammo.(because it is a match quality)


here is a comparation table of 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 rounds:
http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am05-e.htm
  10:59:53  12 November 2008
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marlin
(Novice)
 
On forum: 02/24/2008
Messages: 43

---QUOTATION---

LR 300: 950 m/s

---END QUOTATION---



That's actually 950rpm, which is quite a fire rate but the real muzzle velocity is well below 900m/s.

http://www.combatreform.com/21stcenturyrifle.htm

The main issue with the 5.56mm round is that it does not fragment RELIABLY even under ideal conditions which is why it is so maligned.
  12:10:51  12 November 2008
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JaM1977
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/24/2008
 

Message edited by:
JaM1977
11/12/2008 13:53:26
Messages: 21

---QUOTATION---

LR 300: 950 m/s


That's actually 950rpm, which is quite a fire rate but the real muzzle velocity is well below 900m/s.

http://www.combatreform.com/21stcenturyrifle.htm

The main issue with the 5.56mm round is that it does not fragment RELIABLY even under ideal conditions which is why it is so maligned.
---END QUOTATION---




it is not a good thing to overgeneralize it. M855 was developed as a LMG round - because of steel core it is harder to make it fragment - there is smaller amount of lead and steel will hardly fragment at all. M193 is a totally different - it is lead round and with barrells longer than 14" it will fragment pretty reliably. And new heavier rounds like M262 or that new 72gr. brown tip ammo, they areeven much more lethal and fragment pretty reliably. Its pretty much question what you want to achieve - if you want good penetration at medium range, take M855. But if your enemy dont have armor at all, M192/193 or M262 would be much better.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ballistics.htm

also dont forget that even if M855 dont fragment that much, it will always tumble in flesh producing comparable wounding channels as any 5.45x39 round.
  17:37:53  12 November 2008
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Catsy
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 04/10/2008
Messages: 259
I love watching people argue over the merits and terminal ballistic performance of ammunition. It's like watching a Mac vs. PC argument.

Kidding aside, my research on the SG550 led me to this interesting article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

In reading around, it seems that there is a large secondary market for deactivated SIG 550s and SIG 510s (as well as the SIG P220 service pistols) due to the laws allowing those who have completed their required militia service to keep them by paying a small fee, and GP90 ammo is also readily available with almost no oversight or regulation of its sale.

Having no firsthand experience with this I can't speak to it one way or another, but it sounds like a plausible enough reason to have a more common variant of the SIG550 without selective fire (i.e. semi auto only) pop up in the Zone. Assuming fire select can be changed via upgrades, you could even have an upgrade option that allowed the player to have it converted back to selective fire, albeit perhaps with a drop in reliability.

Lot of assumptions here, but worth a thought anyway.
  13:43:03  13 November 2008
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Roguesaber
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/09/2008
Messages: 20

---QUOTATION---
I love watching people argue over the merits and terminal ballistic performance of ammunition. It's like watching a Mac vs. PC argument.

Kidding aside, my research on the SG550 led me to this interesting article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

In reading around, it seems that there is a large secondary market for deactivated SIG 550s and SIG 510s (as well as the SIG P220 service pistols) due to the laws allowing those who have completed their required militia service to keep them by paying a small fee, and GP90 ammo is also readily available with almost no oversight or regulation of its sale.

Having no firsthand experience with this I can't speak to it one way or another, but it sounds like a plausible enough reason to have a more common variant of the SIG550 without selective fire (i.e. semi auto only) pop up in the Zone. Assuming fire select can be changed via upgrades, you could even have an upgrade option that allowed the player to have it converted back to selective fire, albeit perhaps with a drop in reliability.

Lot of assumptions here, but worth a thought anyway.
---END QUOTATION---



Uh there's another reason for a semi-automatic version of the SIG 550 Assault Rifle to appear in the zone. SIG is now producing a civilian version for the general market. It's called the SIG 556 Carbine... Looks exactly the same as the 550 but is semi-auto only and tends to feature completely un-blued furnishings so its a shiny steel looking weapon compared to the rather dull one that we get with the game.
  14:22:31  13 November 2008
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JaM1977
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/24/2008
Messages: 21

---QUOTATION---
I love watching people argue over the merits and terminal ballistic performance of ammunition. It's like watching a Mac vs. PC argument.

Kidding aside, my research on the SG550 led me to this interesting article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

In reading around, it seems that there is a large secondary market for deactivated SIG 550s and SIG 510s (as well as the SIG P220 service pistols) due to the laws allowing those who have completed their required militia service to keep them by paying a small fee, and GP90 ammo is also readily available with almost no oversight or regulation of its sale.

Having no firsthand experience with this I can't speak to it one way or another, but it sounds like a plausible enough reason to have a more common variant of the SIG550 without selective fire (i.e. semi auto only) pop up in the Zone. Assuming fire select can be changed via upgrades, you could even have an upgrade option that allowed the player to have it converted back to selective fire, albeit perhaps with a drop in reliability.

Lot of assumptions here, but worth a thought anyway.

Uh there's another reason for a semi-automatic version of the SIG 550 Assault Rifle to appear in the zone. SIG is now producing a civilian version for the general market. It's called the SIG 556 Carbine... Looks exactly the same as the 550 but is semi-auto only and tends to feature completely un-blued furnishings so its a shiny steel looking weapon compared to the rather dull one that we get with the game.
---END QUOTATION---




i'm more surpised we dont have more SMGs in game... like Ukrainian Goblin (http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg43-e.htm) or Tasco ( http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg69-e.htm ) or Elf ( http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg42-e.htm ), Russian Kedr, Klin, Bison, Vytiaz...

and lets not forget about Saiga combat shotguns...
 
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