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  13:47:21  11 November 2008
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Elementlmage
Sanity is the state of mind that you believe in sanity
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 04/08/2007
 

Message edited by:
Elementlmage
11/11/2008 13:55:39
Messages: 258

---QUOTATION---
Cute kid. Yours?
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Me at age three.


;;;

Ya, the more I find going on under the surface the more I wanna change stuff. I think for this upcoming release I am going to test out the upgrades and get nade sights re-aligned and call it .5. For .6 definitely new ammo types and loot drops and probably add in k_air_resistance to all the ammo.

Rouge: 14.5 FTMFW!!! That crap face palmed German tanks in WWII.


Wolf:


---QUOTATION---
Question,is the MP5 really cause more damage than an AK74?
---END QUOTATION---



Are you referring to IRL or in my mod? B/c in my mod, the MP5 is in no way more powerful than the AK-74. Now, that being said, if you are playing it on 1.05 or later GSC overhauled the damage models. That mod was made on 1.04, so I had no idea my mod would end up like anything you have undoubtedly seen. The good news is that I have rebalanced all of the damage and combat is now sexier than ever, so GSC can't keep me down for ever.


Anyone else think it's strange that 3 days after I publish my theoretical damage model on the forums GSC changes it?
  17:56:57  11 November 2008
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JaM1977
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/24/2008
Messages: 21

---QUOTATION---
Wow, where do you get you facts from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abd9bpvd6zY

Level 3 body armor test vs. 5.56(doesnt specify 193 or 855) The plate takes 63 rounds before penetration occurs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_vest

Level 2 will protect against 9mm, but not HV 9mm.

What do you consider to be standard Russian 5.45 ammo? The 5n7s? Those where phased out in the late 80's
The new 7n6 rounds are easily on par with the 5.56 and b/c of their better ballistic coefficient retain their energy much better over long flight distances. Not to mention they have a real penetrater core, not that sharped cap at the base of the SS109 FN calls a penetrater.

Were did you get your info that the 5.45x39 doesnt tumble till 20cm. This medical report suggests otherwise. Ah Bosnia, only then did we decide to care about ethnic cleansing...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200112/ai_n9010648

8cm, you will also notice that there is not much of a wound profile. However, you also see that 6 (6 or 8 i forget which) of the rounds do not exit out of the back face of the gel like "normal" terminal models. Once they initiate their first tumble at 8 cm decide they don't want to go straight and pick a random direction. This is were most of the damage occurs, not from temporary cavitation but from the tendency of the rounds to change direction and elongate their wound tracks(hopefully through a major organ )

WTF is a 7.62x61? I assume you mean 7.92x61, in which milspec variant is no longer produced...although the Mauser k98 does supposedly make a great hunting rifle

THat is a reason why M4A1 in Iraq were found inadequate - they barrels are just 14" and with M855 they were not able to make projectile fragment reliably - marines using M16A4 with 20" barrels had no such issues.

Which is one of the reasons the 5.56 is being phased out... it sucks. They are replacing it with the vastly superior 6.8 round and are currently testing service rifles to use the new round. I think Barrett and H&K each have one in the running for the standard service rifle and FN already has the wink from the SpecOps boys for a 6.8 variant of the SCAR.

M193 rounds hit from 1600-1700j, the M855 tends to have slightly more energy coming in at 1700-1775. Were as the 7n6 round only manages to get 1400-1425j, but they retain their energy AND wound potential over longer ranges. We all know that muzzle energy is not everything. Hell even the Chinese were impressed by the 7n6:

This was verified in the livestock testing performed by the Chinese. Here the 5.45 7N6 load showed what it was designed to do and produced significantly larger wounds than either the 5.56 SS109 or the 5.8x42. However the range here was short, only 90m. While the Chinese were impressed by, and commented on the tremendous close range wound capacity of the 5.45 7N6 loading they also stated that by 600m its accuracy, penetration, and wound capability had dropped off significantly due to its lightweight 52 grain projectile. However they also felt the 5.45x39 to be a very economical cartridge to manufacture. The Chinese were impressed by the 5.56x45 SS109 and felt that it was effective up to 600m. However they felt that it had the disadvantages of high chamber pressures and because it utilized brass cartridge cases was not economical to produce.-http://www.snipersparadise.com/articles/chinacomplex.htm

I tried to find ballistics info on the 7n6, but this is the best that I could come up with. Most of the info I found is about or based on the 5n7.


However, we can argue all day long about the superiority of the 7n6 vs M855. I have settled on the notion that the 7n6 has better AP potential than the M855 and has better wound potential at longer ranges. The M855 has better wound potential at closer ranges and tends to be more accurate at long range due to its higher weight and initial energy.
---END QUOTATION---




that youtube video displays new Level IV plates. There is no way Level III plate would stop 63 shots. Even Army requirement says about resistance against 5 shots. SAPI plates used in Iraq had no problem stopping 7.62x39 even at point blank range which has a vastly supperior penetration in comparation to 5.45x39.

Regarding M855 you have to differentiate between SS109 and US M855. M855 has a hardened steel core penetrator not a cap. With M16A4 is produces 1800J and reliably fragment at 200m. Balistically is 5.56x45 more efficient than 5.45x39 just do the math - it is longer heavier projectile with higer muzzle energy.

5.56 doesnt suck, its even more ffective against unprotected targets than 7.62x51. As I mentioned earlier, problem is in too high popularity of shortened weapons - those weapons are not able to produce enough of energy for bullet to reliably fragment. Anything with barrell larger than 15" is OK.
  18:08:01  11 November 2008
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JaM1977
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/24/2008
 

Message edited by:
JaM1977
11/11/2008 18:16:34
Messages: 21
and btw, there is no way a 5.45x39 52gr. bullet would outperform 68gr. 5.56x45 in anything. Balistics is a exact science - there are physical rules that apply - projectile with greater mass, weight, speed and higher L/D will penetrate more. The only way how that would be possible is with Tungsten penetrator, but then it is unfair to compare lead/steel projectile with tungsten one - For 5.56x45 there is M996 with tungsten penetrator. And that projectile can penetrate almost anything... (except Level IV plates)
  18:11:08  11 November 2008
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JaM1977
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/24/2008
Messages: 21
7.62x61 is original WW2 US round used in machine guns - today it is used in balistic testing as a Top level projectile - Level IV protection must be able to protect against 5 hits from 7.62x61 API - that would simulate any medium caliber round with energy up to about 4000J
  18:15:24  11 November 2008
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JaM1977
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/24/2008
 

Message edited by:
JaM1977
11/11/2008 18:22:07
Messages: 21
5.56 is not being phased out - instead Remington 6.8 lost in battlefield tests against several 5.56 projectiles. Therefore there will be no replacement - instead 72gr M262 Mod1 (Match quality) projectile and new "Brown" 5.56x45 78gr. ammo would be used. M262 is probably the best 5.56 projectile with improved accuracy and originally was developed as a sniper round! SF used it with big sucess even with short HK416. New "Brown" ammo is cheaper version of M262 ammo.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20080516.aspx

very good source about 5.56 ammo was http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm but i'm affraid that webpage was removed. (but i probably have a copy somewhere...)
  19:38:13  11 November 2008
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wolfstriked
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 11/02/2008
Messages: 283

---QUOTATION---

Wolf:

Question,is the MP5 really cause more damage than an AK74?

Are you referring to IRL or in my mod? B/c in my mod, the MP5 is in no way more powerful than the AK-74. Now, that being said, if you are playing it on 1.05 or later GSC overhauled the damage models. That mod was made on 1.04, so I had no idea my mod would end up like anything you have undoubtedly seen. The good news is that I have rebalanced all of the damage and combat is now sexier than ever, so GSC can't keep me down for ever.


Anyone else think it's strange that 3 days after I publish my theoretical damage model on the forums GSC changes it?
---END QUOTATION---



LMAO,u made my day!!Combat is now sexier than ever

Cant wait for next version.I have no idea about guns so I go with what I would imagine to be real.Right now I only can comment on the hunting rifle/shotgun/AK-74/MP5/makarov and the fort-12.I go point blank against a wall and fire then move away and look at wallmarks.Your mod feels real.I guess sexy is a dam good word for it

I ask about the MP5 compared to AK74 due to what the green lines info shows.In my game it shows the MP5 has more accuracy and more damage than AK74.Yet in game MP5 has more accuracy but AK74 has a BIT more stopping power.

Will the green lines ever work right in this game...........AND IF NOT...would it be possible to remove them and just state damage/velocity/dispersion rate at 10 meters.


Comment....

The shotgun accuracy changes when crouching or ironsighting.When shooting buckshot,it seems silly to be able to aim the dispersion for a closer grouping.

Question...did you change the character animations??Last night my allies were laying down behind rocks for cover.Never saw that before.Then an enemy looks as though he ran out of ammo and ran around a corner away from me.When I pursued the enemy leans back against wall and flicks just the gun around the corner and fires away
  20:19:40  11 November 2008
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Elementlmage
Sanity is the state of mind that you believe in sanity
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 04/08/2007
Messages: 258
Strielitz is going to be all over your ass! You might want to consolidate your posts.


---QUOTATION---
that youtube video displays new Level IV plates
---END QUOTATION---



Which is why the nice government video specifically states that it's level 3...


---QUOTATION---
...had no problem stopping 7.62x39 even at point blank range which has a vastly superior penetration in comparison to 5.45x39...
---END QUOTATION---



Again, you are referring to 5n7 rounds not 7n6. 7n6 rounds have a penetrator core that makes them far more effective vs. body armor than either 7.62x39 or 5.45 5n7 rounds.


---QUOTATION---
Regarding M855 you have to differentiate between SS109 and US M855. M855 has a hardened steel core penetrator not a cap.
---END QUOTATION---



Wow, that one made me lol. The are the EXACT same bullet(notice I said bullet.) The SS109 bullet is used in both the SS109 and the m855. The only difference is that the SS109 has a lower powder load to keep from damaging the Brit's L85s.


---QUOTATION---
Balistically is 5.56x45 more efficient than 5.45x39 just do the math - it is longer heavier projectile with higer muzzle energy
---END QUOTATION---



You are right, BALLISTICALLY the 5.56 outperforms the 5.45 7n6...only b/c it is 10 grains heavier. The 5.45 is actually a couple of millimeters longer and it has a far more streamlined shape. However, in terms of stopping power, the M855 rapidly losses terminal performance as it falls below 1000m/s (considering the Sig 550 has the highest muzzle velocity in stalker @ 980)

http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammo_Oracle_Mirror_files/wund5.jpg

However, the 7n6 is not nearly as velocity dependent as the M855. So even though b/c of its weight, its performance degrades faster, it still has quite a bit of stopping power out beyond the 200m boundary.


---QUOTATION---
7.62x61
---END QUOTATION---



Dude, just say .30-06. Not even the military says 7.62x61. Also, no US MG has ever used .30-06, the BAR did, but our MGs have only ever used .308 and .50 BMG.


---QUOTATION---
5.56 doesn't suck
---END QUOTATION---



I never said it sucked; did you ever see me say it sucked? It's major flaw is just that below 1000 m/s it rapidly losses effectiveness and below 900 m/s and is rapidly approaching its icepick phase.


---QUOTATION---
and btw, there is no way a 5.45x39 52gr. bullet would outperform 62gr. 5.56x45 in anything
---END QUOTATION---



I fixed it for you


---QUOTATION---
For 5.56x45 there is M995 with tungsten penetrator
---END QUOTATION---



That one too... unless you were intentionally referring to the tracer variant of the M995.
  20:59:48  11 November 2008
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Elementlmage
Sanity is the state of mind that you believe in sanity
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 04/08/2007
Messages: 258

---QUOTATION---


I ask about the MP5 compared to AK74 due to what the green lines info shows.In my game it shows the MP5 has more accuracy and more damage than AK74.Yet in game MP5 has more accuracy but AK74 has a BIT more stopping power.

Will the green lines ever work right in this game...........AND IF NOT...would it be possible to remove them and just state damage/velocity/dispersion rate at 10 meters.


Comment....

The shotgun accuracy changes when crouching or ironsighting.When shooting buckshot,it seems silly to be able to aim the dispersion for a closer grouping.

Question...did you change the character animations??Last night my allies were laying down behind rocks for cover.Never saw that before.Then an enemy looks as though he ran out of ammo and ran around a corner away from me.When I pursued the enemy leans back against wall and flicks just the gun around the corner and fires away
---END QUOTATION---




Let me start be explaining what usually passes for shotgun acc.

Most games use one of three acc. models for shotguns. The most appropriate model is to have a set cluster size that is independent of the acc of the weapon. This way, the shotgun has its own acc. that propels the cluster in the direction it is facing. I have only seen one game EVER that has ever done it this way, Rainbow 6 (1). Red Storm was one of the best developers ever, and rightfully deserve to still be one of the best. Unfortunately they were swallowed up by Ubi in the late 90's.

The most popular model(popular meaning lazy) is to give the shotgun and cluster a fixed acc. So, no matter whether you are prone with your shotty resting on top of a rock or falling off a cliff sideways to your doom it will always have the same acc.

GCS's model (and some other devs) is to have the cluster be dependent on the acc of the weapon. Although not wholly realistic, if you use you imagination(I wish there were a rainbow smiley ) it is kind of like Red Storms model.

;;;;;

No I did not change the char anims, that is all GSCs handy work.

;;;;;

What you are seeing with the green bars is the weapons damage. There is totally separate calculation that goes on once bullet enter the frame. Pistols/SMG and ARs/Snipers are two totally different levels of damage. The way it is set up is that Pistol and SMG damage is relative to other Pistols and SMGs, where as ARs and Snipers are a whole new ball game. Any AR you find will hands down outperform any SMG in this game.
  21:42:39  11 November 2008
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JaM1977
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/24/2008
Messages: 21

---QUOTATION---
Strielitz is going to be all over your ass! You might want to consolidate your posts.

that youtube video displays new Level IV plates

Which is why the nice government video specifically states that it's level 3...

...had no problem stopping 7.62x39 even at point blank range which has a vastly superior penetration in comparison to 5.45x39...

Again, you are referring to 5n7 rounds not 7n6. 7n6 rounds have a penetrator core that makes them far more effective vs. body armor than either 7.62x39 or 5.45 5n7 rounds.

Regarding M855 you have to differentiate between SS109 and US M855. M855 has a hardened steel core penetrator not a cap.

Wow, that one made me lol. The are the EXACT same bullet(notice I said bullet.) The SS109 bullet is used in both the SS109 and the m855. The only difference is that the SS109 has a lower powder load to keep from damaging the Brit's L85s.

Balistically is 5.56x45 more efficient than 5.45x39 just do the math - it is longer heavier projectile with higer muzzle energy

You are right, BALLISTICALLY the 5.56 outperforms the 5.45 7n6...only b/c it is 10 grains heavier. The 5.45 is actually a couple of millimeters longer and it has a far more streamlined shape. However, in terms of stopping power, the M855 rapidly losses terminal performance as it falls below 1000m/s (considering the Sig 550 has the highest muzzle velocity in stalker @ 980)

http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammo_Oracle_Mirror_files/wund5.jpg

However, the 7n6 is not nearly as velocity dependent as the M855. So even though b/c of its weight, its performance degrades faster, it still has quite a bit of stopping power out beyond the 200m boundary.

7.62x61

Dude, just say .30-06. Not even the military says 7.62x61. Also, no US MG has ever used .30-06, the BAR did, but our MGs have only ever used .308 and .50 BMG.

5.56 doesn't suck

I never said it sucked; did you ever see me say it sucked? It's major flaw is just that below 1000 m/s it rapidly losses effectiveness and below 900 m/s and is rapidly approaching its icepick phase.

and btw, there is no way a 5.45x39 52gr. bullet would outperform 62gr. 5.56x45 in anything

I fixed it for you

For 5.56x45 there is M995 with tungsten penetrator

That one too... unless you were intentionally referring to the tracer variant of the M995.
---END QUOTATION---



SS109 and M855 are not the same. They were in the begining, now the difference is much biger - If you ever wanted to use 5.56 ammo, you always want to go with best quality ammo - M855 has much higher quality requirements than SS109.

Another thing - 5.56 ammo doesnt have problems at 900m/s - it has problems if speed is below 800m/s. M16A4 or L85A2 with 20" barrel, G-36 with 18" barrel they all have no problem with 5.56 round,because their muzzle velocity is much higher (900-950m/s) and they approach 800m/s barrier only at ranges over 300m, which is acceptable. Shorter carbines like M4A1 with 14" have muzzle velocity around 900-850m/s, so they have issues at ranges greater than 150m, carbines with even shorter barrel (10" of G-36C, SiG552 or M4 Commando) are with muzzle speed exactly at 800m/s barrier, so they will have performance issues at medium ranges. Even then, hit from 5.56 round at short distance is very lethal - projectile wil not fragment but will tumble very quickly.

Anyway, we are forgeting one major thing why low caliber hipervelocity rounds were selected over large caliber rounds - recoil - 5.56x45 has 1.5x lower recoil than 7.62x39, and 7.62x39 has 2x lower recoil than 7.62x51. 5.45x39 has slightly lower recoil than 5.56x45 (10-15%). This makes 5.56(5.45) weapons much better controlable in short bursts at medium ranges (100-150m) and effectivly controlable in full auto at short distances (below 50-75m)

(sorry about those errors in numbers, i read a lot about balistics year or two ago,and looks like i forgot some things...)
  21:45:01  11 November 2008
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JaM1977
(Novice)
 
On forum: 10/24/2008
 

Message edited by:
JaM1977
11/11/2008 21:45:44
Messages: 21
oh, and regarding SiG550 - it doesnt use standard NATO 5.56 SS109. It use its own 5.6 ammo which is much more accurate and can be fired from all 5.56 rifles. and btw its muzzle velocity is around 945m/s. Only M192/3 were able to have muzzle velocity over 1000m/s when fired from 20" barrel...
 
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