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  12:44:22  19 January 2005
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baff
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 04/16/2004
 

Message edited by:
baff
01/19/2005 12:56:03
Messages: 708

---QUOTATION---


Lol. You'll be begging for more than vitamin pills after lugging the thing around in an 8 hour march with 60 extra lbs of gear.
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i used to lug the slr.
5.1 kg loaded without a sight.
and also the bren which is 10.2kg loaded.
(back when i was a (more) puny teenager).

sa80 5kg loaded with a sight. no problem.


the sa80 is alright by me.
it's a lot easier to carry, it comes with that really nifty sling,
(http://www.fightdirector.com/sa80.JPG )

it's a lot less cumbesome than the slr, as the total length is so much less. (.78 metres vs 1.1 metres) or the .986 metres of the m16. but more importantly it's not so heavy to hold out in an extended unsupported aim.

lactic acid build up and whatever is much less. due to it's bulppup configuration, most of it's weight is centred around the elbow, as opposed to an slr or ar where most of the weight is centred over the hand or even further out.

if you consider that the force exerted (leverage?) is weight times the distance from the fulcrum, you will see that, whatever your personal strength and fitness, the sa80 can be accurately aimed unsupported for many many many more minutes than an slr. (or even a plasticy little ar) .
it's almost the same actual weight as an slr, but requires a fraction of the joules (calories) to aim.

when not aimed, it's sling allows for it to be flexibly carried at arms, with most of the weight transferred to the shoulders. as previously mentioned this transfers most of the weight away from the extremeties and reduces the amount of joules/calories required to carry it.

it may be more or less similar in weight to it's predecessor, but it is a joy to carry.
it can be carried ready to use, without as much interference from undergrowth, it's lighter, and ultimately costs less muscle energy to move making it much less tiring. "ergonomics" i think they call it.


consider this compared to saving the extra 1.5 kgs, for carrying an m16 (3.4kg loaded for the ladies).
if 60 kg vs 61.5kg is really an issue for you, your probably going to join an army that never marches anywhere anyway (for fear of breaking your stillettoes).


get back into your humvee deathtrap, weakling!
  13:09:19  19 January 2005
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
 

Message edited by:
x5060
01/19/2005 13:09:58
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---
(.78 metres vs 1.1 metres) or the .986 metres of the m16.
---END QUOTATION---



Now remmember, M16's come in ALL shapes and sizes.

Everything from
[link]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/849717/OLYOA93.jpg[/link]
to
[link]http://www.freewebs.com/x5060/gear.jpg[/link]
to
[link]http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/bus_24fvar9.jpg[/link]


---QUOTATION---
(or even a plasticy little ar)
---END QUOTATION---



I RESENT THAT!!@!! The AR/M16 family is entirly Forged Aluminium and Steel. There are ONLY 3 plastic parts on the entire thing, the stock (which you can get metal ones), the pistol grip, and the forward grip. Your SA80 has more plastic than an M16.


---QUOTATION---
(3.4kg loaded for the ladies)

get back into your humvee deathtrap weakling!
---END QUOTATION---



Your begging for a boot to the ass now.
  14:22:00  19 January 2005
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baff
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 04/16/2004
Messages: 708
sa80 comes in different shapes and sizes too.

you can get sa80 in carbine mini and squad support also. whats your point?

bullpups provide the same barrel length in a shorter rifle.
thats the way it is. famas, steyr, groza, whatever. it's a design principle.
bullpups are shorter.


this one should fit quite nicely in my wifes handbag.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/849717/OLYOA93.jpg
right next to her hand mirror and mascara.

in all honesty that one is a contender for the worlds most pointless assault rifle award. looks nice though. very pretty. it would be nice to see a painted one.

i don't find the build of sa80's especially rugged either. but ar's are truely horrible. they feel like toys.
featherweight recoil monkeys.

aluminium explains a lot.
does it bend when you bump it against things?

holding a loaded firearm instills me with a unassailable feeling of self confidence. m16 is no exception. it is however the least confident i have ever been holding a weapon.

again, like with the sa80, i would never contemplate clubbing someone around the head with one, for fear of breaking it.
  13:03:03  21 January 2005
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015
The recievers and barrel are not aluminium, the are steel. The internals are aluminium(except the hammer). Personally i dont see how the weapon being light is a bad thing, easier to present.

As for the rest, i know bullpups are shorter, it is inherant in the design. The M16/AR15 can be just as short though (and shorter).

Anywya, im sorry that you dont like it, but it is the weapon im use too. Im sure i wouldent feel very "confident" with an SA80, which you probably know more about than i do. I know more about the M16 family, thus im more comforrtable and confident with it.
  21:53:11  22 January 2005
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baff
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 04/16/2004
 

Message edited by:
baff
01/22/2005 21:57:31
Messages: 708

---QUOTATION---
The recievers and barrel are not aluminium, the are steel. The internals are aluminium(except the hammer). Personally i dont see how the weapon being light is a bad thing, easier to present.

As for the rest, i know bullpups are shorter, it is inherant in the design. The M16/AR15 can be just as short though (and shorter).

Anywya, im sorry that you dont like it, but it is the weapon im use too. Im sure i wouldent feel very "confident" with an SA80, which you probably know more about than i do. I know more about the M16 family, thus im more comforrtable and confident with it.
---END QUOTATION---



my theory is you fall in love with the one you use the most.

again the length of the rifle with same length barrel is shorter in a bulppup. clearly from that picture above an m16 can be modified to a shorter length, but then we are no longer dealing with a comparative weapon. (perhaps an ingrams or a mini uzi would be closer).

i'm not confident with either. i prefer the bulk and ergonomics of the sa80 to wield. but it's too light for me.

my reasoning for weight is simple. managable recoil for automatic fire.
the heavier the gun, the better the grouping. and something that makes for a serious club. rightly or wrongly, i associate weight with a sturdy build.
i'm used to the lee enfield, the slr (and the ak). both lee enfield and slr are pigs for a little bloke like me to present.
i'm used to heavy guns, so thats what i prefer. wood is big plus also. i like wood.

although the sa80 weighs almost the same (or more in the case of the lee enfield), it is much easier to present.
i was surprised to learn that it weighs that much. i didn't realise until i looked it up after your post. it certainly doesn't feel like that, and it is really easy to swing it about.

the bulk of the weight is behind the wrist, not infront of it. it's heavier than the ak, but "feels" lighter. despite it's extra weight (the weight of the sight), it takes less energy to present it. even though it wieghs more, it's still easier.

length,
being the aforementioned shorty, i have issues with barrels scraping on the floor. especially with heavy rifles when my weak little arms are tired. at school, we used to do some of that parade drill where you port arms by luzzing it over your shoulder and all that spinning stuff. i used to get very embarrassed when i wasn't tall enough (or strong enough) to do this without spiking the barrel on the ground. really didn't enjoy that.
anything that is physically shorter, without compromise to performance is right up my street.

i dislike the sa80 for the same reason's i dislike the m16.
but bulppup configuration is a clear step forward.
i'd like to try some more, see if i can find one with a rugged design.

are you a serviceman 5060?
you were saying leavenworth maybe?

what do they do there?
  15:08:02  23 January 2005
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---

i dislike the sa80 for the same reason's i dislike the m16.
but bulppup configuration is a clear step forward.
i'd like to try some more, see if i can find one with a rugged design.
---END QUOTATION---



I have no problem with bullpups, Its a good design, but there are some flaws. Such as catching brass in your teeth, and not being able to use the weapon fluidly ambidextrously. which is VERY important for tactical situations. This is why we train all branchs and soldiers to shoot ambi.


---QUOTATION---
are you a serviceman 5060?
you were saying leavenworth maybe?

what do they do there?
---END QUOTATION---



Fort leavanworth is out in kansas. Its an ARMY instilation. Its one of the Major Command Stations for the ARMY.

Im not a serviceman, im a civie, but I am a training consultant. I teach dynamic entry, weapon maintainence (M16, M203, SAW, M9, Mk23(discontinued), USP Tactical(the Mk23's replacement), and Sig P226N) marksmenship, and tactical awarness. Right now we are working with 844th Engineer Battalion, 76th Infantry, IMA graduates, and elements of the 10th Mountain (been showing those army guys what National Guard can do)
  21:20:11  30 January 2005
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Extreme Pilot
(Novice)
 
On forum: 03/09/2004
Messages: 25
I assume that when that somebody said "The bigger the round, the better", they meant that both rounds are flying at the same speed, only the larger one will do more damage.
  12:31:23  31 January 2005
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---
I assume that when that somebody said "The bigger the round, the better", they meant that both rounds are flying at the same speed, only the larger one will do more damage.
---END QUOTATION---



Maybe someone saaid it, but its not true. The design of the round is more important. At anywhere less than 300 yards, the 5.56 round has a better wounding capability than a 7.62.Thats because the 7.62 tumbles through a target and a 5.56 fragments (or almost explodes). For that statement to be true, as you said, all variables would have to constent between the 2 rounds.
  22:36:37  19 April 2005
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kingofapes21
(Novice)
 
On forum: 04/12/2005
Messages: 12
Actually in the US alot of the police services and what not are switching to the .40 calibre hollowpoint for its stopping power but still able to control and good magazine size
  18:38:42  20 April 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927
I think that perhaps they're switching to the heavier hollowpoint because parabellum hollowpoints penetrate insufficient amounts of flesh to be effective and parabellum fmj rounds overpenetrate.
 
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