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READ & LEARN: Damage, Target Neutralization, Energy, and Caliber

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  14:22:01  14 January 2005
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DrSbaitso
(Novice)
 
On forum: 01/11/2005
Messages: 19
You said there was no rail system whatsoever. There obviously is one, that's all I needed to say.

As for that review of the SA-80 that you provided, it's basically like the one that I read, only with a target-shooters spin put on it so that it looks more positive. Really it acknowledges much of the shortcomings of the rifle, but lauds its superior accuracy. If it's an unreliable weapon, all the accuracy in the world won't save you in the field.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a hubbub about this. Sorry if I'm coming off a bit punchy, but I felt there was another side that should be told.
  00:53:09  15 January 2005
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---
You said there was no rail system whatsoever. There obviously is one, that's all I needed to say.

As for that review of the SA-80 that you provided, it's basically like the one that I read, only with a target-shooters spin put on it so that it looks more positive. Really it acknowledges much of the shortcomings of the rifle, but lauds its superior accuracy. If it's an unreliable weapon, all the accuracy in the world won't save you in the field.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a hubbub about this. Sorry if I'm coming off a bit punchy, but I felt there was another side that should be told.
---END QUOTATION---



Alright, i guess i should have said "No plossibly useful rail system." As for its short commings, Im just wondering if you have nay experiance with said weapon?
  02:19:32  17 January 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---

Alright, i guess i should have said "No plossibly useful rail system." As for its short commings, Im just wondering if you have nay experiance with said weapon?
---END QUOTATION---



Personal experience should be taken with a grain of salt because anecdotal evidence that points toward a preference is subjective. The only reason why I trust what you say is because you are somewhat of a professional- and I take your preferences under advisement.

From what I've gleaned about the SA80 is that it is accurate but it's heavy and could be better. It was refurbished by H&K, I believe, and the problems were sorted. It's a shame that Enfield wasn't more consciencious about taking the evaluations of the ar-180 into account in the first place. I think there is a reason that the armalite website says that the sa80 is regarded as the world's worst contemporary assault rifle.
  21:08:18  17 January 2005
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baff
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 04/16/2004
 

Message edited by:
baff
01/17/2005 21:13:02
Messages: 708

---QUOTATION---

From what I've gleaned about the SA80 is that it is accurate but it's heavy and could be better. It was refurbished by H&K, I believe, and the problems were sorted. It's a shame that Enfield wasn't more consciencious about taking the evaluations of the ar-180 into account in the first place. I think there is a reason that the armalite website says that the sa80 is regarded as the world's worst contemporary assault rifle.
---END QUOTATION---



compared to the slr, it's light as a feather.
further to this since it's a bulpup most of the weight is behind the elbow.
so it is not noticably heavy (due to leverage i suppose).
it doesn't tire the arms.
weight is something i like in a weapon. dampens the recoil and allows for a faster rate of fire.
it doesn't feel as plasticy as the ar series. but it's not as reassuring as an slr or ak. it never occoured to me that it would do someone in if i clubbed them around the head with it.

i've never tried one in the field, so i can't speak for it's reliability.
it's been used in every climate on the planet and subsequently fine tuned.
while there has been much bad press about the sa80. in particular the number of jams in afghanistan, what most reports fail to mention, is that it was tested alongside the m4 carbine, which performed substantially worse.

in operation anaconda
27 out of 54 of the 101st airborne interviewed after operation anaconda said that their m4's had jammed in combat, while 3 out of 7 minime users said that on contact with the enemy, the weapon had failed to fire completely.

compare this to the 1/3 of the sa 80 testgroup malfunctioning, and while still utterly pathetic compared to an ak, it's not quite as bad as it has been made out to be. desert enviroments have never been kind to automatic weapons.

on the otherhand
---QUOTATION---
But that was sharpshooters on a rifle range. On a dusty, hot hilltop in Afghanistan in May a group of British and U.S. Marines came under fire from suspected al Qaida militants and they returned fire. The American M-16s fired perfectly, the British Marines' SA-80 A2s didn't, suffering several stoppages
---END QUOTATION---


it's not a one sided debate. the incident this bloke refers to (excuse me but my movie has started and i've lost the right quote) is one where an 8 man squad of royal marines (i suspect) engages al quada, all the guns jam except the 2 out of 8 who are using m16's with grenade launchers. which don't.
the m203 laucher had a glowing report from afghanistan. but sinc it's not an automatic weapon, that is hardly surprising


the problem with the sa80, is that it's not the slr.
comparatively, it is either an excellently reliable weapon, or very unreliable. the opinions differ depending on what you are comparing it with.

british soldiers were not comparing the weapon with other 5.56 assault rifles on the market, but instead with the 7.62 fn rifle they were used to.
once the old timers have all moved on or adjusted to the new weapon, much of the maligning has ended.
  02:10:26  18 January 2005
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---

Personal experience should be taken with a grain of salt because anecdotal evidence that points toward a preference is subjective. The only reason why I trust what you say is because you are somewhat of a professional- and I take your preferences under advisement.

From what I've gleaned about the SA80 is that it is accurate but it's heavy and could be better. It was refurbished by H&K, I believe, and the problems were sorted. It's a shame that Enfield wasn't more consciencious about taking the evaluations of the ar-180 into account in the first place. I think there is a reason that the armalite website says that the sa80 is regarded as the world's worst contemporary assault rifle.
---END QUOTATION---



You are correct, anecdotal evidence isnt the best type of evidence, however, one should not jsut jump on hte bandwagon of hating for studies that are BASED on anecdotal evidence. The only reason the SA80 has a bad wrap is becasue of horror stories told about it. Just like how the M16 was vilified back in vietnam.

It is a good weapon, not the best, and somewhere i do believe that i said it was a might bit heavy, its not the perfect weapon, but its no slouch.
  04:37:02  18 January 2005
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Harry-the-Ruskie
(Senior)
 
On forum: 10/07/2004
Messages: 75
Are there any good books on the SA80 ?? ....one that tells the story from a proper perspective, not just the negatives.

Also I like to learn more about the Kalashnikov series of weapons ? Do you have any recommended authors/titles ?

Thanks
  13:32:19  18 January 2005
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---
Are there any good books on the SA80 ?? ....one that tells the story from a proper perspective, not just the negatives.

Also I like to learn more about the Kalashnikov series of weapons ? Do you have any recommended authors/titles ?

Thanks
---END QUOTATION---



I dont think anyone has ever made a book about the SA80. Not exactly a great market, you might be able to find a field manual though.

As for AK's, we have a TV channel in America called "The History Channel" and they have a program called "The way of the gun" and they devoted an entire 2 hour episode to AK's. Its was VERY interesting.
  14:28:20  18 January 2005
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baff
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 04/16/2004
 

Message edited by:
baff
01/18/2005 14:31:41
Messages: 708

---QUOTATION---
Are there any good books on the SA80 ?? ....one that tells the story from a proper perspective, not just the negatives.

I dont think anyone has ever made a book about the SA80. Not exactly a great market, you might be able to find a field manual though.

---END QUOTATION---


nice review here
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/sa80.pdf

also theres a good article in the guardian newspaper charting it's development.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,808713,00.html

as for being a bit heavy, i recommend vitamin pills.
  17:02:05  18 January 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---
Are there any good books on the SA80 ?? ....one that tells the story from a proper perspective, not just the negatives.

I dont think anyone has ever made a book about the SA80. Not exactly a great market, you might be able to find a field manual though.

nice review here
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/sa80.pdf

also theres a good article in the guardian newspaper charting it's development.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,808713,00.html

as for being a bit heavy, i recommend vitamin pills.
---END QUOTATION---



Lol. You'll be begging for more than vitamin pills after lugging the thing around in an 8 hour march with 60 extra lbs of gear.
  02:21:50  19 January 2005
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
 

Message edited by:
x5060
01/19/2005 2:22:08
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---

as for being a bit heavy, i recommend vitamin pills.

---END QUOTATION---



Why would i want to carry 5kgs of vitamins?
 
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