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READ & LEARN: Damage, Target Neutralization, Energy, and Caliber

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  00:03:36  29 December 2004
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---
there is no discussion on tactical firearms.. the original discussion was regarding the supposed superiority of higher calibers always being superior in a combat setting.
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Right. You are using the .223 as an example to refute the claim that a larger calibre is always superior. However, there are limits to this discussion because we were talking about pistol loads. A firearm that is loaded with .223 with a 14 inch barrel can hardly be considered a pistol. Moreover, there are premises that claim that the ability to reaquire targets and shoot rapidly gives credence to small roudns being superior (ie. the 9mm parabellum when fired from a pistol). The thompson .223 is not only not a pistol but it's breach loaded.

What I am trying to illustrate is that your examples can't be used to in that argument.
  00:33:12  29 December 2004
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---

I might be wrong but i have a video of tracer rounds being fired from a humvee or some vehicle and incendiary rounds being fired from a helicopter in the recent iraqi war.
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Thats because we, as a nation, said "Fuck you" to the UN. it was only till a year ago that it got repealed.


---QUOTATION---
X5060: is there anywhere i'd be able to find budget pricing on Q3131A? i'm on a budget and i'm planning right now to just buy a load of Federal American Eagle 55gr FMJ when i pick up my Mini 14.
---END QUOTATION---



Well the last time i bought it was at the knob creek shot in kentucy. We picked up a REALLY cheap case for about 150$ but i think it normallly runs about 230-250 / per 1000. I love my winchester white box


As for the argument. I would much rather have a rifle going into combat than a pistol.
  00:05:06  5 January 2005
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ookami
(Novice)
 
On forum: 12/11/2003
 

Message edited by:
ookami
01/05/2005 0:21:13
Messages: 30

---QUOTATION---
"if i had to carry a gun it would definitely be a .45 because the 9mm doesn't do shit."
---END QUOTATION---


And I do. It might be interesting if we could talk to those Moro warriors in the Philippines and see what they preferred being shot with. I'm pretty confident in betting the .45 would be a bit more influencial in their decision to keep going or not after being shot.

But I do see your point. Thinking a 9mm is virtually useless and anything bigger is automatically leaps and bounds above and beyond it is stupid thinking.
  07:20:42  6 January 2005
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Harry-the-Ruskie
(Senior)
 
On forum: 10/07/2004
 

Message edited by:
Harry-the-Ruskie
01/06/2005 7:37:56
Messages: 75

---QUOTATION---


You can say all you want, but it isnt YOUR fellow countrymen taht are dieing, Now im not saying start killing civilians, but there are some stupid clauses in the Geniva convention that PROHIBIT soldiers from being effective in thier jobs. Such as the "No round that COULD cause unnessicary suffering" clause. This means NO Hollowpoints, NO double tapping, NO EFMJ, Hell 3 years ago it was ruled that the US is no longer allowed to use tracers or incendiary (tank or otherwise) rounds. Not to mention that our enemy is already considered an UNLAWFUL COMBATANT.
---END QUOTATION---



Hello x5060. With that ruling of 3 years earlier, were there changes that substantially supersede positions that were mentioned in this article by Dean Speir of the GunZone ? :-

http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html

I'm not sure of the date of Speir's article but it looks recent.

You also mentioned earlier about your choice loads being the Hydrshok. I was wondering if I can get your opinion about the QuickShok loads for use within the home environment in tropical weather (meaning that perpetrators are not likely to wear heavy clothing....at most a T-shirt or similar apparel). I would be looking at 9mm rounds and also 22 LR. I know the latter mousegun is laughable but a friend here just would not let go of his 22 LR for a better caliber because he is only allowed one-gun and he rather like the 22 LR for recreational shooting. Self-defence it seems is not high on his list of priority.

Thanks

HTR
  07:35:59  6 January 2005
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Harry-the-Ruskie
(Senior)
 
On forum: 10/07/2004
Messages: 75

---QUOTATION---

The statement was taken from Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness writting by Patrick Urey of the FBI Firearms Training Unit. Despite being 15 years old it remains one of the best sources for basic information on handgun wounding factors according to experts in the field of wound ballistics:

[link]http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm[/link]
---END QUOTATION---



I might be wrong, but wasn't it the FBI who (after their Miami incident) initiated that new testing methodology which emphasized permanent crush cavity as the primary factor and ushered in a period of subsonic velocities heavyweight pistol bullets that emphasized deep penetration ?

Didn't those loads give inadequate performance with the result that most cops now go high velocity light to medium weight P bullets that expand well with adequate penetration and also good performance through heavy clothing and vehicle glass. And more importantly emphasizing the stretch cavity (instead of the permanent cavity) as the major factor for incapacitation ?

Did the FBI also subsequently gave up their position in respect of subsonic deep penetration rounds ? Anyone ?
  20:27:41  6 January 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---

The statement was taken from Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness writting by Patrick Urey of the FBI Firearms Training Unit. Despite being 15 years old it remains one of the best sources for basic information on handgun wounding factors according to experts in the field of wound ballistics:

[link]http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm[/link]

I might be wrong, but wasn't it the FBI who (after their Miami incident) initiated that new testing methodology which emphasized permanent crush cavity as the primary factor and ushered in a period of subsonic velocities heavyweight pistol bullets that emphasized deep penetration ?

Didn't those loads give inadequate performance with the result that most cops now go high velocity light to medium weight P bullets that expand well with adequate penetration and also good performance through heavy clothing and vehicle glass. And more importantly emphasizing the stretch cavity (instead of the permanent cavity) as the major factor for incapacitation ?

Did the FBI also subsequently gave up their position in respect of subsonic deep penetration rounds ? Anyone ?
---END QUOTATION---



The essay basically says that the energy transfer from pistol loads is not the primary wounding factory. It also says that tissue distruction is not sufficient to cause much in the way of incapacitation. No way is the 9mm's temporary cavity sufficient to do anything special. The essay, as well as other sources I've encountered, says that the primary wounding factor of any handgun load is defined by what it hits, not if it its. So, you want something that penetrates deeply. This is also pertinent when discussing barrel length, as barrel length improves velocity but can also cause a premature mushrooming which reduces the bullet's ability to penetrate, thereby reducing its ability to harm the vital structures that are located to the rear of the torso. At any rate, I think you want to go with as much destruction as possible. I see nothing in the essay that says that .45s are clearly superior to the 9mm- only that you want to cut through your target but you don't want to cut down the innocent bystanders behind him.
  22:51:40  6 January 2005
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---

Hey x5060. With that ruling of 3 years earlier, were there changes that substantially supersede positions that were mentioned in this article by Dean Speir of the GunZone ? :-

http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html

I'm not sure of the date of Speir's article but it looks recent.
---END QUOTATION---



Well, he has made a misconception. There is no rule in the Genevia Convention that STRICTLY says you may not use expanding jacket rounds. However there is one that says "No usage of weapons that cause excesive suffering" Which was ruled as to include hollowpoints and the like. These are also included in the Rules of Engagment in my government.


---QUOTATION---
You also mentioned earlier about your choice loads being the Hydrshok. I was wondering if I can get your opinion about the QuickShok loads for use within the home environment in tropical weather (meaning that perpetrators are not likely to wear heavy clothing....at most a T-shirt or similar apparel). I would be looking at 9mm rounds and also 22 LR. I know the latter mousegun is laughable but a friend here just would not let go of his 22 LR for a better caliber because he is only allowed one-gun and he rather like the 22 LR for recreational shooting. Self-defence it seems is not high on his list of priority.

Thanks

HTR
---END QUOTATION---



Ive never heard of any weapon loads called QuickShok. However a 22 pistol is just about worthless in a self protection situation. Ive heard first hand stories of .22s being stoped by a heavy jacket. I wouldent trust my life to anythign LESS than a .38 in that type of situation. Tell him to grow a pair and get a better calibur
  03:43:42  7 January 2005
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Harry-the-Ruskie
(Senior)
 
On forum: 10/07/2004
Messages: 75

---QUOTATION---


The essay basically says that the energy transfer from pistol loads is not the primary wounding factory. It also says that tissue distruction is not sufficient to cause much in the way of incapacitation. No way is the 9mm's temporary cavity sufficient to do anything special. The essay, as well as other sources I've encountered, says that the primary wounding factor of any handgun load is defined by what it hits, not if it its. So, you want something that penetrates deeply. This is also pertinent when discussing barrel length, as barrel length improves velocity but can also cause a premature mushrooming which reduces the bullet's ability to penetrate.........
---END QUOTATION---



Roger that. What do you think of the series of Stopping Power books with data on actual shooting incidents published by Sanow and Marshall ?
  03:58:28  7 January 2005
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Harry-the-Ruskie
(Senior)
 
On forum: 10/07/2004
Messages: 75

---QUOTATION---


Well, he has made a misconception. There is no rule in the Genevia Convention that STRICTLY says you may not use expanding jacket rounds. However there is one that says "No usage of weapons that cause excesive suffering" Which was ruled as to include hollowpoints and the like. These are also included in the Rules of Engagment in my government.
---END QUOTATION---



OK thanks. I still haven't been able to figure out that bit about not causing "excessive suffering". How does one define excessive suffering ? LOL



---QUOTATION---


Ive never heard of any weapon loads called QuickShok.


---END QUOTATION---



Oh sorry, hehe...I meant the line of ammo from Triton called the QuikShok (designed by the very same Tom Burczynski of Hydrashok and EFMJ fame). I always manage to spell the 'Quik' wrong.

http://www.tritonbullets.com/about.htm


---QUOTATION---



However a 22 pistol is just about worthless in a self protection situation. Ive heard first hand stories of .22s being stoped by a heavy jacket. I wouldent trust my life to anythign LESS than a .38 in that type of situation. Tell him to grow a pair and get a better calibur
---END QUOTATION---



LOL. Don't think I did not try. I have been pestering him to get a serious caliber for self-defence but he's stubborn as a mule. Not so much a case of him not having a pair (he's certainly not recoil-shy). Rather he is just so attached to that 22 LR and put more weigh on plinking and recreational shooting than self-defence. Weird, but I guess it takes all types of people to populate this world
  13:22:48  7 January 2005
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---

OK thanks. I still haven't been able to figure out that bit about not causing "excessive suffering". How does one define excessive suffering ? LOL
---END QUOTATION---



It was worded to be subjective, so the UN could make it say whatever they want it too. :/


---QUOTATION---

Oh sorry, hehe...I meant the line of ammo from Triton called the QuikShok (designed by the very same Tom Burczynski of Hydrashok and EFMJ fame). I always manage to spell the 'Quik' wrong.

http://www.tritonbullets.com/about.htm
---END QUOTATION---



Well looking at some rough ballistics and some range reports, its seems pretty underpowered. The penetration is very substandered even for a .22. although it is a good idea, the problem with breaking the round into 3 parts is the reduction in mass and momentum. If this is used for self defense, i suggest many center mass rounds, and i mean LOTS.



---QUOTATION---
LOL. Don't think I did not try. I have been pestering him to get a serious caliber for self-defence but he's stubborn as a mule. Not so much a case of him not having a pair (he's certainly not recoil-shy). Rather he is just so attached to that 22 LR and put more weigh on plinking and recreational shooting than self-defence. Weird, but I guess it takes all types of people to populate this world
---END QUOTATION---



Yeha, we have those kind in America too. They are the ones that are going to get all of our firearms rights taken away, Slowly.
 
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