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READ & LEARN: Damage, Target Neutralization, Energy, and Caliber

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  07:13:20  22 December 2004
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---
You cant honestly compare high velocity rifle rounds to pistol rounds as a way to disprove that statement.

There are pistols in .223 and .17 HMR.

(also you're not the only person ever to have said bigger is better, at these forums... the Desert Eagle types need to learn too)
---END QUOTATION---



The short barrel would certainly castrate the terminal effectiveness of the round. The m4 barrel is considered too short. I would not go out on a limb to say that the bushmaster is more effective than a sidearm. At such a short barrel the .223 would be incredibly uncomfortable to fire, uncontrollable, loud, slow and innaccurate.
  03:24:25  23 December 2004
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Mus
(Senior)
 
On forum: 06/13/2004
 

Message edited by:
Mus
12/23/2004 3:26:34
Messages: 100

---QUOTATION---
The short barrel would certainly castrate the terminal effectiveness of the round. The m4 barrel is considered too short. I would not go out on a limb to say that the bushmaster is more effective than a sidearm. At such a short barrel the .223 would be incredibly uncomfortable to fire, uncontrollable, loud, slow and innaccurate.
---END QUOTATION---



Correct. With M193 and M855 the M4 can be below its fragmentation threshold (around 2700 fps although there is some examples of some fragmentating at lower vel and some refusing to fragment at higher velocity) past 100 yards, further for the M193 with its slightly higher velocity. Some really short barrel AR variants (11.5" arent fragmenting past 50 or so. It wouldnt suprise me to discover that if you get the barrel short enough (like the really short barrel AR15 pistols made by Bushmaster for example) that it would fail to fragment even at the muzzle. I havent read any tests to find out for certain however.

This was part of the reason for the development of the Mk262 mod 1 77 gr open tip match round for the special operations guys. They wanted something that would still fragment out to 200-300 yards and some figures I have seen show it doing just that in both 16" and 20" barrels. The testers didnt have a 14.5" barrel M4 to test with (cant afford the SBR tax stamp), but the 1.5" difference isnt as great as you might think. I have heard that out of 16" barrels M193 may fragment out to as far as 150 yards with M855 going out to about 125.
  04:17:37  23 December 2004
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baff
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 04/16/2004
Messages: 708

---QUOTATION---
The short barrel would certainly castrate the terminal effectiveness of the round. The m4 barrel is considered too short. I would not go out on a limb to say that the bushmaster is more effective than a sidearm. At such a short barrel the .223 would be incredibly uncomfortable to fire, uncontrollable, loud, slow and innaccurate.

Correct. With M193 and M855 the M4 can be below its fragmentation threshold (around 2700 fps although there is some examples of some fragmentating at lower vel and some refusing to fragment at higher velocity) past 100 yards, further for the M193 with its slightly higher velocity. Some really short barrel AR variants (11.5" arent fragmenting past 50 or so. It wouldnt suprise me to discover that if you get the barrel short enough (like the really short barrel AR15 pistols made by Bushmaster for example) that it would fail to fragment even at the muzzle. I havent read any tests to find out for certain however.

This was part of the reason for the development of the Mk262 mod 1 77 gr open tip match round for the special operations guys. They wanted something that would still fragment out to 200-300 yards and some figures I have seen show it doing just that in both 16" and 20" barrels. The testers didnt have a 14.5" barrel M4 to test with (cant afford the SBR tax stamp), but the 1.5" difference isnt as great as you might think. I have heard that out of 16" barrels M193 may fragment out to as far as 150 yards with M855 going out to about 125.
---END QUOTATION---



i feel the same way about fragmenting bullets as i do about chemical weapons.
  21:49:03  23 December 2004
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Mus
(Senior)
 
On forum: 06/13/2004
Messages: 100

---QUOTATION---
i feel the same way about fragmenting bullets as i do about chemical weapons.
---END QUOTATION---



The comparison is pretty off base. How do you feel about flamethrowers? High Explosive Dual Purpose light cannon rounds? Cluster Bombs?
  00:12:05  24 December 2004
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
 

Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/24/2004 0:16:58
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---

The short barrel would certainly castrate the terminal effectiveness of the round. The m4 barrel is considered too short. I would not go out on a limb to say that the bushmaster is more effective than a sidearm. At such a short barrel the .223 would be incredibly uncomfortable to fire, uncontrollable, loud, slow and innaccurate.

Correct. With M193 and M855 the M4 can be below its fragmentation threshold (around 2700 fps although there is some examples of some fragmentating at lower vel and some refusing to fragment at higher velocity) past 100 yards, further for the M193 with its slightly higher velocity. Some really short barrel AR variants (11.5" arent fragmenting past 50 or so. It wouldnt suprise me to discover that if you get the barrel short enough (like the really short barrel AR15 pistols made by Bushmaster for example) that it would fail to fragment even at the muzzle. I havent read any tests to find out for certain however.

This was part of the reason for the development of the Mk262 mod 1 77 gr open tip match round for the special operations guys. They wanted something that would still fragment out to 200-300 yards and some figures I have seen show it doing just that in both 16" and 20" barrels. The testers didnt have a 14.5" barrel M4 to test with (cant afford the SBR tax stamp), but the 1.5" difference isnt as great as you might think. I have heard that out of 16" barrels M193 may fragment out to as far as 150 yards with M855 going out to about 125.
---END QUOTATION---



To clarify for argumentative purposes, all of this is a rebuttle to the claim that .223 sidearms are necessarily more effective than larger, more weakly loaded bullets. The claim was a rebuttle to the argument that high velocity rounds can't be used as a way to refute the claim that larger diameter bullets are always better.

It is not meant to say that this verifies that larger diameter bullets are better. It's simply meant to illustrate that, when we are talking about pistol loads and pistol length barrels, using a rifle round as an example is not meaningful.
  13:55:38  24 December 2004
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---

Correct. With M193 and M855 the M4 can be below its fragmentation threshold (around 2700 fps although there is some examples of some fragmentating at lower vel and some refusing to fragment at higher velocity) past 100 yards, further for the M193 with its slightly higher velocity. Some really short barrel AR variants (11.5" arent fragmenting past 50 or so. It wouldnt suprise me to discover that if you get the barrel short enough (like the really short barrel AR15 pistols made by Bushmaster for example) that it would fail to fragment even at the muzzle. I havent read any tests to find out for certain however.

This was part of the reason for the development of the Mk262 mod 1 77 gr open tip match round for the special operations guys. They wanted something that would still fragment out to 200-300 yards and some figures I have seen show it doing just that in both 16" and 20" barrels. The testers didnt have a 14.5" barrel M4 to test with (cant afford the SBR tax stamp), but the 1.5" difference isnt as great as you might think. I have heard that out of 16" barrels M193 may fragment out to as far as 150 yards with M855 going out to about 125.
---END QUOTATION---



Thats some grade A truth right there. Good to know someone does there homework. Personally i still preffer my Q3131A though. Im thinking about getting a SBR AR-15. Or maybe a HK94.


---QUOTATION---
when we fight, we fight as invaders.
treat people as you wish to be treated, not as they treat you.
it's not about reciprocal love, it's about personal honour.
---END QUOTATION---



You can say all you want, but it isnt YOUR fellow countrymen taht are dieing, Now im not saying start killing civilians, but there are some stupid clauses in the Geniva convention that PROHIBIT soldiers from being effective in thier jobs. Such as the "No round that COULD cause unnessicary suffering" clause. This means NO Hollowpoints, NO double tapping, NO EFMJ, Hell 3 years ago it was ruled that the US is no longer allowed to use tracers or incendiary (tank or otherwise) rounds. Not to mention that our enemy is already considered an UNLAWFUL COMBATANT.
  23:52:38  26 December 2004
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Zig
Ye Oulde Zigge
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 11/21/2003
 

Message edited by:
Zig
12/26/2004 23:59:02
Messages: 315
My uncle owns a Thompson target pistol in .223 and it certainly treats him well.

Anyway, I think we all need to think a little bit about the value that magazine capacity has, as well as the value of a lower-recoil round.

Consider this: given the opportunity to choose JHP 9mm, JHP .40S&W, or JHP .45acp, which would you use?

I would invariably choose the JHP 9mm because the velocity, magazine capacity, and low recoil are all advantages without cons, due to the JHP factor.

X5060: is there anywhere i'd be able to find budget pricing on Q3131A? i'm on a budget and i'm planning right now to just buy a load of Federal American Eagle 55gr FMJ when i pick up my Mini 14.
  04:01:14  27 December 2004
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---
My uncle owns a Thompson target pistol in .223 and it certainly treats him well.

---END QUOTATION---



That is a breach loaded hunting impliment with a 14 inch barrel. How is that comparable to a tactical pistol? I don't see how that is related to the discussion on tactical firearms.
  02:10:29  28 December 2004
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Zig
Ye Oulde Zigge
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 11/21/2003
Messages: 315
there is no discussion on tactical firearms.. the original discussion was regarding the supposed superiority of higher calibers always being superior in a combat setting.
  19:46:59  28 December 2004
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Sil3nt-War
(Novice)
 
On forum: 07/18/2004
Messages: 25

---QUOTATION---

Hell 3 years ago it was ruled that the US is no longer allowed to use tracers or incendiary (tank or otherwise) rounds. Not to mention that our enemy is already considered an UNLAWFUL COMBATANT.
---END QUOTATION---

I might be wrong but i have a video of tracer rounds being fired from a humvee or some vehicle and incendiary rounds being fired from a helicopter in the recent iraqi war.
 
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