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  13:41:14  17 May 2005
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---
Hmm.

[url=http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2005/03/right-weapon-for-job.html]Right Weapon for the Job[/url] - Pretty much where I'm getting my definitions.
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I read the first few lines and now know what problem you are having. He reffers to AR not as "Assualt Rifle" but as Eugene Stoners AR serise of weapons. (The AR15, M16, M4)


---QUOTATION---
I guess I'm a bit more nebulous in using the terms than I ought to be; I'll defer to you on that.

As for FAL being suitable to CQB, sure you can do it, but the things are a meter long. If you were going in on a house-to-house op, would you rather have a FAL or a smaller, lighter-caliber/higher-capacity (controllably full-auto) carbine?
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My FAL isnt a meter long =

its 2 feet 4 inchs... Again, your trying to use generalities. You cant use them with weapons, there is too much variation between all of them. Thats like saying a every human is 5'8". Well thats not true, the average human, might be 5'8" but you cant say that every FAL is a meter long. Again, you are still trying to make a definite line, in an area that isnt definite. A lot of governments use G3's in thier arsenals for room to room.

Now, im not arguing whether one is better suited than the other. But arguing that your terms you are using are nothing more than Media generated BS. The term Assualt rifle as it is presently used was taken from the media taht used it to describe the evil killing power of scary looking weapons. Same as the term "Sniper Rifle", "Cop-killer bullets", and "Saturday night Specials". There is no clearly defined meaning behind any of these terms. Instead they are there to be used to sound scary. YOU gave them what your definition of what an "Assualt rifle" means to you. As soon as you classify somethign as an "Assualt Rifle" there is always exceptions that dont fit that criteria.

P.S. As Fux is starting to understand. There is no way of designating what an "Assualt Rifle" is.
  15:49:17  17 May 2005
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Stiletto
(Novice)
 
On forum: 05/16/2005
 

Message edited by:
Stiletto
05/17/2005 16:01:33
Messages: 10

---QUOTATION---
My FAL isnt a meter long =

its 2 feet 4 inchs... Again, your trying to use generalities. You cant use them with weapons, there is too much variation between all of them. Thats like saying a every human is 5'8". Well thats not true, the average human, might be 5'8" but you cant say that every FAL is a meter long. Again, you are still trying to make a definite line, in an area that isnt definite. A lot of governments use G3's in thier arsenals for room to room.
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Eh? Which model do you have? The stats I was working (World.Guns.Ru) have it at 1.1m for the original full-length rifle, and 990/736 stock extended/folded for the shortened version. So the 2'4" number only applies if you have the stock folded. (Assuming a standard rifle, it seems there are a few exotics out there)

I know fully well that the article was saying "AR" as in Stoner's AR-15 line. The article also described the "Assault Rifle" concept in depth as opposed to the "Battle Rifle" concept. Read through Part 1. Assault rifle is used as a descriptor of the tactics associated with the rifle, ditto battle rifle. If I didn't see the terms used fairly often on non-MSM sites, I would just say "automatic rifle" or "combat rifle" and keep it generic; instead I find that the two terms are defined well enough (for me) that the distinction is useful and I can save the words otherwise necessary in describing a rifle to someone who has never heard/seen of it.

The distinctions are a little fuzzy, but as described in the article, you can fit pretty much any modern combat rifle into the category of "assault rifle" or "battle rifle". As I see it, it mainly breaks down along the 5.56x45/7.62x51 line; the Russians beat us to the squad fire DMR organization when they did AKs and SVDs.

Also, what military did you serve in? (Just curious, don't shoot me) And do you have pics of your FAL?
  05:15:57  18 May 2005
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Mark Spittle
(Senior)
 
On forum: 02/20/2005
Messages: 96

---QUOTATION---

I say if your enemy isnt fighting per the Geneva Convention, we shouldent have to either. Hollowpoints, Hydrashoks, and EFMJs all around.
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Yeah, that's why all these macho dickheads use rifles when hunting bears.

Following that logic, I say if the bear isn't using rifles, then you shouldn't either. Use your big ass claws. And if you don't have claws, then I guess yer shit outta luck, and shouldn't be bear hunting.

That's why the US has a civilian government run the military. Left to their own devices, the military would reduce civilization to a pack of dogs, killing each other over trash.
  09:20:01  18 May 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927
x5060: It is possible to create an operational definition for both. I'm not starting to understand, I've read and considered a lot of information. Things is science aren't so cut and dried, either, but this is not to say that classifications and taxonomy are useless, media hype. Furthermore, not every classification is a collection of media buzzwords. Some are actual 3d dimensional weapon concepts, as Stiletto described, and the terms are useful in so far as they are descriptive.

Take, for example, the term Squad Automatic Weapon. Those words are totally meaningless but for the use it is implying. It is a concept of warfare, and a part of military doctrine.

Shortened FAL would be FAL carbines . I think that what Stiletto was describing is standard issue.

Stiletto: I think that Eugene Stoner uses AR for Automatic Rifle, no? Or am I mistaken?
  13:46:10  18 May 2005
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---
x5060: It is possible to create an operational definition for both. I'm not starting to understand, I've read and considered a lot of information. Things is science aren't so cut and dried, either, but this is not to say that classifications and taxonomy are useless, media hype. Furthermore, not every classification is a collection of media buzzwords. Some are actual 3d dimensional weapon concepts, as Stiletto described, and the terms are useful in so far as they are descriptive.
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Oi, I really hate arguing semantics. You have your beliefes in this regard, I have mine.


---QUOTATION---
Take, for example, the term Squad Automatic Weapon. Those words are totally meaningless but for the use it is implying. It is a concept of warfare, and a part of military doctrine.
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Yes, but SAW is a weapon designation, there is only one weapon with taht designation. The M249 is the only weapon that can be called a SAW.


---QUOTATION---
Shortened FAL would be FAL carbines . I think that what Stiletto was describing is standard issue.
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Yes, but its still an FAL, is it not? you can swap out the barrel on a SI FAL and get a carbine. (Just to make sure, the term carbine is a descripter not a part of a new designation, with1 or 2 exceptions)


---QUOTATION---
Stiletto: I think that Eugene Stoner uses AR for Automatic Rifle, no? Or am I mistaken?
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This is true. Though most people dont know, but the first few rifles that reached vietnam where full auto only. As you can tell this changed very quickly.
  17:53:33  18 May 2005
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Stiletto
(Novice)
 
On forum: 05/16/2005
 

Message edited by:
Stiletto
05/18/2005 17:55:38
Messages: 10
Meh. Right then, I think this is where we agree to disagree, or something.

As for SAW, I think the United States is the only country to actually call their squad LMG the "squad automatic weapon". I don't get why we don't just call the thing a Squad LMG and be done with it, other than the military obsession with TLAs.

What do you guys think about the 6.8SPC vs. 6.5 Grendel debate?
  23:43:51  18 May 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927
x5060:

It wasn't really a semantic argument so much is it was a conceptual one... but this is a semantic argument right now so I'm going to shut up.

I respect your opinion, and it is a founded one and it is very convincing. I am fortunate to have people like you and Stiletto to debate with. You guys are not only smart but you're good communicators, and you don't come off like you have something to prove. It's really refreshing.

An impression about the SAW that I am under but could not cite sources for, so don't ask :

SAW superceded PIG as the squad machinegun role. It's only seen in america because it's part of the tactical american military doctrine, is it not?

I don't know much about the new rounds being considered, so I'll let you guys go off on it and just read what you write for a change.
  04:00:52  19 May 2005
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Stiletto
(Novice)
 
On forum: 05/16/2005
Messages: 10
Eh?

What does PIG stand for?
  06:31:09  19 May 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
 

Message edited by:
Fux0r666
05/19/2005 6:41:45
Messages: 1927
Personal Infantry Gun. It applies the m60. The name itself is equally meaningless to SAW, but PIG marks an epoch in machinegun design where a machinegun could be carried and operated by one man. Asbestos mittens asside, the design was much more advanced and tailored towards a single operator. It was certainly lighter and more portable than the m1919.
  14:53:23  19 May 2005
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doggydog
Tripping on waste
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 03/06/2004
Messages: 1524

---QUOTATION---
m1919.
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The BAR? (how ironic )
 
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