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anyone seen this before?

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  00:02:24  5 June 2012
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Meltac
messing with code
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On forum: 01/21/2010
Messages: 1519
anyone seen this before?

Hi

I just messed around with the shaders and directX stuff and got this:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/dynamic-shaders/videos/lighting-tests-not-for-production

Weird thing is that I didn't change any lighting stuff, so does anybody happen to know what might be causing such behavior?
  15:50:32  5 June 2012
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xoen
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On forum: 06/10/2011
 

Message edited by:
xoen
06/05/2012 15:56:11
Messages: 248
hm all i can see is volumetric lights + shadow diffuse there...
am i missing something?
i know who you are, that's why i am asking question like this.

volumetric lights works weird, i mean volumetrics work EXACTLY opposite of how it should(when we are in shadows, shadowed area should be brighten, that if seen from outside of shadowed area).
i never understood this behaviour in stalker.

it reminds me weird ARMA hdr brightening/eye adaptation, same issue - works OPPOSITE from proper way(whole screen dims when we point to dim areas and brightens when we point to bright areas there).

anyway, this is why i am not using volumetrics in stalker, it is just done wrong way;/
  17:39:10  5 June 2012
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Meltac
messing with code
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On forum: 01/21/2010
Messages: 1519
That's exactly what I'm talking about. I just didn't notice - no, I'm sure that I didn't have that behavior before having made those changes.

So what enables that volumetric lighting thing and where is it configured? (well TBH I don't see anything "volumetric" about it, compared to what you have in CS or CoP)
  21:58:05  5 June 2012
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xoen
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On forum: 06/10/2011
 

Message edited by:
xoen
06/05/2012 22:03:56
Messages: 248
/gamedata/shaders/r2, that cfg txt in there(cannot remember its name now).
you may turn it off by // it in EVERY quality preset stored there..
it may be turned on with shader configurator, but tool is messy, so it is better to operate manually.
it may turn itself when stalker shaders quality level is changed, so it may be reason, why you did not have it earlier(ultra quality turns it on automatically unless you manually edit cfg to not use it with shader quality levels).

one look at shader cfg and you will know all.
  23:34:33  5 June 2012
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Meltac
messing with code
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On forum: 01/21/2010
Messages: 1519
you're talking about sunshafts, right? I checked turning them off and the effect was gone. Hadn't ever noticed it before although I had always enabled them. But I think it's a misimplementation, however I'm afraid I won't be capable of fixing it. Too bad.

Thanks anyway.
  00:38:06  6 June 2012
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xoen
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On forum: 06/10/2011
 

Message edited by:
xoen
06/06/2012 0:45:28
Messages: 248
yes, right, name's sunshafts there...
BUT, i think that darkening of volumetric shadow may be related to:
a). enb preset used(some option)/fxaa injector + stalker shader,
b). stalker user.ltx( HDR/brightness/contrast) relation.
c). both of above....

i think, that it is possible to set it properly(i mean brighter shadows while being inside of shadowed area, not perfectly, but quite ok, at last), because i remember having it quite bright together with no-too-bright rest of image.
but, since i messed up with whole thing, i lost proper settings...so i turned it off.
it may be fixable with messing up with "scene illumination", since it sets darkest part of image, but i cannot check it now, my DVI-DVI cable JUST broke, ffs(when i just launched stalker, DAMN).

ok, off to laptop and dwarf fortress...until i get dvi cable tomorrow, sigh...
  10:39:29  6 June 2012
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Meltac
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On forum: 01/21/2010
Messages: 1519
It might be possible to set it up properly but somehow I doubt that you'll get it really good, so might be better (IMO) to get rid of that effect at all.

But since I like having sunshafts turned on (yes I might be quite the only one...) I'd prefer to remove that behavior from the shader's code. I'll check that out.

I'm not running enb, and my fxaa injector does nothing more than pure AA (all other options disabled), but I agree that the effect may depend (maybe heavily) on the user.ltx settings.
  13:57:14  6 June 2012
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xoen
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On forum: 06/10/2011
 

Message edited by:
xoen
06/06/2012 13:57:34
Messages: 248
good luck, post solution, if you find one...i'd like to use godrays too..
  23:02:17  9 June 2012
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FatalFunnel
(Senior)
 
On forum: 11/07/2011
Messages: 133

---QUOTATION---
hm all i can see is volumetric lights + shadow diffuse there...
am i missing something?
i know who you are, that's why i am asking question like this.

volumetric lights works weird, i mean volumetrics work EXACTLY opposite of how it should(when we are in shadows, shadowed area should be brighten, that if seen from outside of shadowed area).
i never understood this behaviour in stalker.

it reminds me weird ARMA hdr brightening/eye adaptation, same issue - works OPPOSITE from proper way(whole screen dims when we point to dim areas and brightens when we point to bright areas there).

anyway, this is why i am not using volumetrics in stalker, it is just done wrong way;/
---END QUOTATION---



Would it be possible to invert it somehow?
  14:31:38  10 June 2012
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xoen
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On forum: 06/10/2011
 

Message edited by:
xoen
06/10/2012 19:16:24
Messages: 248

---QUOTATION---
I'd prefer to remove that behavior from the shader's code.
---END QUOTATION---




---QUOTATION---

Would it be possible to invert it somehow?
---END QUOTATION---



hm, i wonder, i just checked(STALKER Shaders MAX 1.05) and i found two files interesting:
accum_sun_far.ps
accum_sun_near.ps
and i assume, some !!SCIENCE!! could do miracles there.
there's nothing related to sun_shafts in other shader files, btw, so i assume, all we need is experiment with proper things there(notice how resulting brightness of shadows/volumetrics is accumulated there and what is affecting overall effect - many variables are cumulating DEPENDENTLY on which quality of shaders is in use, IN GENERAL(notice "if, then"'s)).

my point is, that there's possibility to get very interesting effects, if i am right.
  22:38:11  10 June 2012
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Meltac
messing with code
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On forum: 01/21/2010
Messages: 1519

---QUOTATION---
my point is, that there's possibility to get very interesting effects, if i am right.
---END QUOTATION---



Indeed there is. I've already experienced with exactly those two files before and made some optimizations for sun shafts generation.

However you'll need to understand quite a bit of that code in order to implement something intended, not only random - which probably is the reason why I've not yet managed to "decrypt" entirely what's going on there...

This said, "inverting" the effect might be easy if you exactly know what to tweak and where - but otherwise you'll probably end up in a mess of lighting artifacts behaving very weird
  23:31:57  11 June 2012
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xoen
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On forum: 06/10/2011
 

Message edited by:
xoen
06/12/2012 0:26:52
Messages: 248

---QUOTATION---

however you'll need to understand quite a bit of that code in order to implement something intended, not only random.
&
This said, "inverting" the effect might be easy if you exactly know what to tweak and where - but otherwise you'll probably end up in a mess of lighting artifacts behaving very weird

---END QUOTATION---


hey, i know this, i am not retarded...
indeed, matter is complicated.
i am not a matematician, so my way of analyzing thing may be funny then.

---
notification to myself(thinking aloud):
shadows are barely visible when sunshafts are on(i mean they are washed), almost invisible from distance. BUT, it is not happening when sunshafts are OFF. ergo, "waning effect" is strictly related to parts when sunshafts are defined/used. for same reason, shadow.h is not needed to be edited.

upd: since shadows are dark when we are NEAR of them, and washed out when distant(relatively)distance factor is clearly used. by averaging value, or restricting it properly, we can obtain needed effect(more or less constant, with small range of changes).
probable usefulness of contrast factor is disputable.

notification no.2:
SS_FARNEARLERP is NOT used, so sections where this term is used in both files may be skipped.
  15:26:56  12 June 2012
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Meltac
messing with code
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On forum: 01/21/2010
 

Message edited by:
Meltac
06/12/2012 15:27:33
Messages: 1519
On second thought - of further research -, the way that the engine illuminates the scene when sun shafts are enabled might be fairly correct. Look at these real world examples:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/220/520205195_c6ca9e318d.jpg
http://www.goodwp.com/nature/20338-forest-tree-light-ray-sun.html

Here the objects (e.g. trees) behind the sun shafts seem to be lit although they are located in a dark area without sunlight. So it seems that when you look through a volumetric ray of light those objects beyond it will appear lighter / brighter than they would when you are close to them. It's a little like the effect of nightvision goggles, or opposite to sunglasses - an filtering effect that is applied relatively to the viewer under specific viewing conditions (that are: viewer's positions, volumetric light's position, color, and intensity).

So, to come back to the initial video, that means when you look into that buildings corner from further way, it seems to be lit, because the sunlight beam traversing between the viewer and the corner seems to enlighten the dark areas beyond it - whereas when you go close into that corner you'll "pass" the sunlight beam and leave that light source behind you, resulting in the original image of the dark corner without the additional lighting of the sunlight in front of it.

Of course this only happens when the light beam's angle is at most orthogonal to the dark corner and not shining directly into it, because otherwise the corner would be lit under any viewing perspectives.

Was that more or less understandable? It's complex matter as you say.
  00:45:54  13 June 2012
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xoen
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On forum: 06/10/2011
 

Message edited by:
xoen
06/13/2012 3:11:46
Messages: 248
when you look through a volumetric ray of light those objects beyond it will appear lighter / brighter
i agree, that's quite obvious.

---QUOTATION---

than they would when you are close to them.
---END QUOTATION---


indeed.

now, sorry for my english below, i was in forest today, sitting for a hour in shadowed area, and i was thinking:

skip volumetrics in case when you are standing in shadows looking on shadowed area: when you are in shadows, nearby shadowed area should be bit lighter for your eyes, than when you are outside of that shadow.
so, what i mean, is, that overdarkening of shadows is the problem, from my point of view, not sunshaft brightness addition to dark area. but BOTH things are happening there at the same time, notice.
that differs from effect on photos you posted(btw, great pics there). shadows are visible on photographs and are not darkened at all.

another thing:
notice again, shadows are visible on photos that you posted, while in stalker, sunshafts=on removes ALL shadows from relatively near distance up to FAR area(tbh shadows are visible just near you).

so, we can see few things when sunshafts are on:
-brightness rises behind sunshaft regardless of area behind, and it is OK, looks neat, etc etc.
-shadowed area outside of sunshaft is darkened(TOO MUCH) when we are in shadowed area,
-shadows are invisible when we are looking far - something related to sunshaft behaviour is waning shadows TO REMOVE DISTANT sunshaft processing, IMHO, as shadows are strictly linked to sunshaft code, or better, lnikage is made to prevent engine from processing up-to-horizon sunshaft rendering what RESULTS in shadows dissapearance.
notice, that stalker sunshafts are rendered in NEAR distance only.

so, i think, that:
a. forcing sunshafts to FAR point will make shadows visible(but it may make FPS drop + weird look in general),
b. changing contrast of shadows in volumetred areas would make em..well, brighter when you are in shadows(and it removes need of doing point a. then), BUT i doubt, that it change FAR visibility of shadows;/

now, i wonder, if it is made on purpose. btw i do not remember, how it is made in clear sky, but i think that sunshafts were not removing shadows in distance AND engine was not processing sunshafts in FAR areas, am i right?

hmmm, maybe it could be good idea to look onto CS shaders regarding that matter?


btw, i just watched your vid again, and, imho, "inshadow darkening" is main problem(as i stated before, generally), can you agree?
for me, far shadow dissapearance is second one(open areas NEED far shadow visibility, imo).

can you post CS shaders pack? i'd like to compare sunshaft sections...
  14:00:40  13 June 2012
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Meltac
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On forum: 01/21/2010
 

Message edited by:
Meltac
06/13/2012 17:02:20
Messages: 1519
In most points I agree with you. However note the following:

1. The reason why midrange/distance shadows fade is that the respective ground areas are illuminated by sunshafts' light (the shafts themselves are not visible but their light is casted onto the ground thus making shadows nearly invisible). I managed to add a simple hack to prevent the entire map from being lit like that, so that distance shadows will be visible again.

2. I have no idea why the light from the sun shafts is visible in distance whilst the shafts themselves are not. If it was a performance consideration or something similar there should be a hint of that in the sunshafts' code but I haven't found it so far.

So if you know which part of the code is responsible for the shafts being only displayed in near range I'd probably be able to tweak that in order to get a far better lighting behavior.

3. Nothing is really volumetric light here, it's just a fake that has nothing to do with the way of rendering sun shafts in CS which are DX10-based volumetric light. The portion of code in the CS shaders turned out to be unused (maybe was early test or something), at least in DX10 mode.

EDIT:
To be more precise, DX9 as used in ShoC does not yet have hardware-supported volumetric light (unlike DX10), however you could implement it software-wise. But those sunshafts we're talking about are not even software-based volumetrics, they are pure fake effects.
  15:13:34  14 June 2012
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xoen
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On forum: 06/10/2011
 

Message edited by:
xoen
06/14/2012 15:16:20
Messages: 248
for far shadows, i assume, that you changed line 129(right panel)?

i made this screenshot:
http://www.mm.pl/~xoen/stalkerx.jpg

and notice line 53 on the left(46 on the right).
then notice line 106 on the left(85 on the right).
and line 93 on the right.

i tried to fiddle with line 5(left), but zero difference.
  15:47:06  14 June 2012
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Kocayine
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On forum: 07/15/2010
Messages: 918
Sorry for just dropping in like a retard without any useful to say, but xoen - what comparing tool is that? and what Windows theme for that matter...
  16:07:46  14 June 2012
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xoen
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On forum: 06/10/2011
 

Message edited by:
xoen
06/14/2012 16:53:07
Messages: 248

---QUOTATION---
xoen - what comparing tool is that? and what Windows theme for that matter...
---END QUOTATION---



this is "compare contents" from total commander(modded powerpack in my case, but function is default one here). i am unable to use Windows without TC anymore.
of course, i joined three screenshots to make one.

theme(winxp ONLY) i am using is heavily modified by me, i do not remember its original name(lightroom 'something'), it was not as space efficient and optimized, as my version, though..also, i made start menu and menu, uh, start nicer, than in orginal theme...i narrowed taskbars, windowbar, and i made some color changes, and other tweaks.
here's what it does look like(i mean my one, not original):
http://www.mm.pl/~xoen/xothemea.jpg

and here's link:
http://www.mm.pl/~xoen/xoxptheme.zip

very space efficient and it is not hogging GUI(as many themes do). i used every method for optimization i could use there.
we all know how HARD is to make dark themes for windows, this is one, that can be used on daily basis(least background-to-font color problems - thing that differs linux dark themes from windows themes/GUI way of handling main font color;/).

upd: ah, shit, i forgot to add font i am using for some skin elements, NINA(it is VERY narrow font that is real space saver, though i am not using it in total commander itself):
http://www.mm.pl/~xoen/nina.jpg
(notice, that font viewer is from total commander too - key F3).
http://www.mm.pl/~xoen/nina.zip

if colors from just applying theme differ from screenshot, here's my exported color profile for js3dcc(color theme editor/loader, tool named "3d color" sometimes):
http://www.mm.pl/~xoen/xodark.zip
color profile can be used standalone, with themes turned off(so everything is used with nonskinned oldstyle GUI).

feel free to mail me, if you encounter any problems, or have questions.
  17:28:00  14 June 2012
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Kocayine
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On forum: 07/15/2010
Messages: 918
Aw, could've figured the minimalistic look would have meant it was XP. Im on Win7 these days though. Thanks for sharing the theme and such, though! You are a cool guy

Hmm, the total commander comparison thing looks better than Winmerge, tbh. I might go for that!
  17:46:58  14 June 2012
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xoen
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On forum: 06/10/2011
 

Message edited by:
xoen
06/14/2012 22:11:03
Messages: 248
get total commander, immediately, Kocayine, you'll love this tool(and it's incredible extending possibilities).
you will never use explorer windows, never ever.
as a matter of fact, good tc pack is able to REPLACE whole explorer shell at this moment.
  17:58:38  14 June 2012
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Meltac
messing with code
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On forum: 01/21/2010
Messages: 1519
Ok ok guys, now that everybody loves total commander, let's go back to topic.

It may interest you xoen that me and ket where discussing the sun shaft topic since some while ago, and now we just may have found a cool way to implement much nicer sun shafts (in my opinion) than that code above.

There's nothing to say definitely, but I just wanted you know that it may not be worth anymore spending much more time on analyzing the "old" code that probably won't ever be tweakable in a way to achieve real good looking sun shafts.

More info will follow soon, for now we still have to figure out some vital aspects before being able to show anything definite.
  01:42:07  25 June 2012
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xoen
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On forum: 06/10/2011
 

Message edited by:
xoen
06/25/2012 1:42:32
Messages: 248
good luck then.
VERY sorry for posting, btw.
  12:40:16  25 June 2012
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Meltac
messing with code
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On forum: 01/21/2010
Messages: 1519

---QUOTATION---
good luck then.
VERY sorry for posting, btw.
---END QUOTATION---



Thanks - and no problem
 
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