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L.U.R.K.: Overhaul Discussion

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  02:52:06  28 August 2010
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{imperialreign}
Звуковой Шаман
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 10/29/2008
 

Message edited by:
{imperialreign}
08/28/2010 6:38:47
Messages: 3075

---QUOTATION---
Not ths again. Ok, if you'll were to dig in these forums, you'll find an old thread that discussed stealth, me, Dez, Bac9, and a few others where all discussing it, years ago, and I believe a dev was involved aswell.

Real stealth is impossible per se. Only stealth you can make is fake and an AI hack, changing Sound distances and vision distances, thus leading to problems, like being able to chill around a campfire with bandits until you shoot and then they hear you, regardless of you stood infront of them, or the opposite where they see you miles away, or it does work.

Point is stealth is nothing but AI Hacks, no real stealth, the fact people claim stealth pisses me off, especially seeing as 99% of mods that claim it, were made by those who haven't even been around for that long, or weren't even involved in old threads discussing the probability's of Stalker.

I admit, we've done things most said where impossible, but those are things said by gamers, not the devs, unlike the stealth which was confirmed by GSC themselves isn't in the game and is impossible without rebuilding the engine with the full SDK, which we don't have.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but theres a few more sources out that backing up this post, you just need to look.

Maybe someone will post a few after digging them up, or hell, even prove me wrong. Time will tell, but for now, get a grip.
---END QUOTATION---




jamie - I'm not trying to disagree with you, but:

https://www.gsc-game.com/index.php?t=community&s=forums&s_game_type=xr&thm_page=4&thm_id=17095&sec_id=11

Now, all things considered . . . stealth in vanilla SoC/CS/CoP is extremelly difficult. Only way I can accomplish such is from my 10 years spent with the Thief series, and everything I learned there about how AI tend to react to the actor. Granted, STALKER's AI is nowhere near in the same league for pathfinding and searching as Thief, they're two entirelly different engines . . . but, that being said, if you is patient, cautious, and pays enough attention to both the visibility and audibility meters of vanilla, you can always gain the upper hand on a bunch of AI milling about.

As long as you don't fire a weapon, you can accomplish many tasks without violence as well.

But, I still do agree with you, though, that stealth is in essence broken. When I think stealth, I think Thief - being able to hide in very dark shadows without being seen. The way the engine is, such is impossible. The only way to remain unseen is to move quickly from one cover to another, and keep AI from having a clean LoS to you - which can be difficult.

TBH, based on my experience with STALKER - I've been a very firm believer in modders leaving perception distances completely alone, and simply fixing the audio comments (which has already been done by myself and Darius). Fiddling with the perception distances can result in very buggy AI, or unnatural AI.

Anyhow, that's just my $.02.


-EDIT-

Come to think of it, though - I have yet to play any mod that has actually made stealth any easier. Quite frankly, most mods I've played that've claimed improvements to stealth have only served to make it harder - or so ridiculosuly easy that anyone can pull it off without having to think about what they're doing.

-EDIT pt. DVA-

. . . and by no means do I intend any of the above in attacking any current mod on the scene. I'm mearly stating the facts as I see them, based on my experiences and my expectations.
  05:01:59  28 August 2010
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Strelok08
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 03/12/2010
 

Message edited by:
Strelok08
08/28/2010 5:02:18
Messages: 787
I'm not trying to learn and nor am I some kiss ass fool.

I'm trying to shut you up, Kane. Leave the fucking thread alone.
  11:15:22  28 August 2010
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Kane4
"Order of the Liquidators" and Dez0wave Tester
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/17/2008
 

Message edited by:
Kane4
08/28/2010 11:20:27
Messages: 12608
I wonder if proximity detection could work in Stalker? It would help blind npc's see you in the dark if you're too close to them and would help this stealth system quite abit. Still I doubt it could work, or if anyone would want to script it in. Not to mention the additional load on the cpu. This engine isn't ment for stuff like that.
  20:42:44  29 August 2010
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Steelhawk92
Average Joe - Used to be Jamie1992
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 03/16/2008
 

Message edited by:
Steelhawk92
08/29/2010 20:43:54
Messages: 5051

---QUOTATION---
Ugh. Kane, you were supposed to stop posting. Zagbar, or however you spell it, your just mad, or something, that other people can enjoy a mod you were wrong about. Watch the let's play video. It's decent, better than vannila's, and it's fun. Fun. Lot's of it. You don't have to pretend it isn't just because you were wrong, just admit it. Jamie, same to you. For some reason, you support so many mods that claim utter bullshit, yet you won't leave lurk alone.
---END QUOTATION---



Whats with the sudden hate from you???? I've always hated mods that claim stealth so feck knows where you are coming from. :S

Anyway, as I said, there was a discussion a long time ago, maybe it is possible, but in all variants and examples shown and made it isn't real, I've yet to see a fully functional and unbuggy stealth.

{imperialreign}

Interesting read friend. However it doesn't seem to me to be a 100% solution to the argument. Maybe the Russians will make some real stealth like they have with the Dual Weilding.

EDIT

Anyway this wasn't meant to start another argument, just merely show some insight. So we all need to chill.
  22:43:19  29 August 2010
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{imperialreign}
Звуковой Шаман
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 10/29/2008
Messages: 3075

---QUOTATION---
Interesting read friend. However it doesn't seem to me to be a 100% solution to the argument.
---END QUOTATION---



. . . and this, Jamie, is where I agree with you - there isn't a 100% sure-fire solution to fixing the quirks and inadequacies of STALKER's stealth. The best improvement that I know of is to fix the audio, and leave everything else alone . . . at least, that way, it's bearable.

But, it still has it's issues.

TBH, though, I sometimes feel that perhaps too many users expect a different kind of stealth. Quite frankly, I don't think the majority of players have the patience necessary to risk sitting in one spot for 15+ min learning the patrol routes of a bunch of enemies, then planning out the best form of approach, etc. I've always been under the impression too many users expect to be able to move and hide, move and hide, move and hide, without paying attention to their surroundings . . .

Too many Sam Fishers out there and not enough Garrets,
  23:04:29  29 August 2010
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Steelhawk92
Average Joe - Used to be Jamie1992
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 03/16/2008
Messages: 5051
Yup, Stealth, or atleast makeshift is possible however a fully stable and functional stealth seems to be a far cry. However, we shall see.

I agree I personally love that, laying in wait, reading patrols and popping people. Makes me want to play Arma 2.

I hope the Russians come out with some more stuff, cause it seems the English side is rather.....Stagnant IMO. Maybe that's the wrong phrase.
  23:26:03  29 August 2010
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PressurE
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 09/07/2009
Messages: 272
Even though ive seen lots of discussion on stealth and how it really cant be implemented correctly in stalker, Lurk to me, is really fun to play and im just thankful we have talented people to provide us with mods giving us their vision of stalker. Please keep the mods coming is what i hope for. Im gonna play every mod that's released if i can, Lurk is one of my personal favorites that i have played and still do. Thank you holden and team for that.
  00:20:07  30 August 2010
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{imperialreign}
Звуковой Шаман
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 10/29/2008
Messages: 3075

---QUOTATION---
Yup, Stealth, or atleast makeshift is possible however a fully stable and functional stealth seems to be a far cry. However, we shall see.

I agree I personally love that, laying in wait, reading patrols and popping people. Makes me want to play Arma 2.
---END QUOTATION---



Yerp - I really enjoyed the challenge that the merc laptop quest in CoP provided - it took forever to learn those patrol routes . . .


---QUOTATION---
I hope the Russians come out with some more stuff, cause it seems the English side is rather.....Stagnant IMO. Maybe that's the wrong phrase.
---END QUOTATION---



Well, there's still stuff in development . . . but, to the best of my knowledge, they're still a ways off . . .

. . . and no word on hwio they might affect in-game stealth, either . . .
  00:23:37  30 August 2010
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Kane4
"Order of the Liquidators" and Dez0wave Tester
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/17/2008
 

Message edited by:
Kane4
08/30/2010 2:20:12
Messages: 12608
I wonder how FarCry implemented stealth in it's game? It did work well, didn't it?
  06:39:05  30 August 2010
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Rahu X
PATROLLING THE MOJAVE ALMOST MAKES YOU WISH FOR A NUCLEAR WINTER
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/13/2009
 

Message edited by:
Rahu X
08/30/2010 6:51:20
Messages: 341

---QUOTATION---
I hope the Russians come out with some more stuff, cause it seems the English side is rather.....Stagnant IMO. Maybe that's the wrong phrase.
---END QUOTATION---

I sadly have to agree with you there. All I've seen coming from the good 'ole USA is modpack after modpack. L.U.R.K. is the only mod from the US that at least has some originality. I mean, just looking on ModDB, somebody is releasing Bland OL Modpack #79, and the rest of the mods from the US are either addons for OL, or modpacks containing it. It's kind of making me lose hope for the longevity of this game if all we're getting besides the quality Russian mods are modpacks that are basically based on a mod that itself is even a ripoff of a truly great mod. And I think most, if not all, of us are tired of playing AMK for the 400th time but this time with cheating night vision or ludicrously increased inventory weight, or useless feature #24, etc.

And let's not forget Faction War mod after Faction War mod as well. I swear, ever since OL came out, all the US fans want with their mods is Faction Wars, which in itself in OL was mostly broken. Or at least from my experience with it.

All I know is that I need to learn Russian, because there are a lot of mods I'd really love to play out there, but most of them aren't in English.
 
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