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L.U.R.K.: Overhaul Discussion

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  22:37:39  21 May 2009
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BAC9-FLCL
Senior Moderator
 

 
On forum: 04/10/2007
 

Message edited by:
BAC9-FLCL
05/21/2009 22:46:31
Messages: 8995

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I get a very strong feeling that you've neglected to read the changes, one of which is "including dynamic light visibility parameters"
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I've read them. And, if you read my previous post, you'll understood why AI "dynamic light visibility" realisation with only config/script editing - is impossible nonsense

I'm not criticizing the mod, just saying that there is common sense in feature possibilities, and stealth elements mentioned above can't be made without engine sources
  22:42:45  21 May 2009
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Anaphiel
(Novice)
 
On forum: 04/17/2009
Messages: 23

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I see what you did there ... Indeed vanilla storyline is very interesting but not if you play it over and over again. And that is why we need new storyline mods. I just can't stand that you people can't see it, or maybe you don't want to or just don't care? This community is stagnating, it stopped in one place and won't move forward. Take a look around, most soc mods, especially nowadays, are just slightly modified merged mods. In addition, cs mods are porting things from soc mods. It's just sad ... :\

As a coauthor of Priboi Story I spent enough time (almost 2 years) on it, it's just boring for me as well as vanilla game is.
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I think Barin just hit on the reason why the mod community feels "stagnant" in his last statement: making a story-based mod like Priboy Story requires more talent, time, and patience than most people can muster.

STALKER really just doesn't seem to be moddable to that degree unless you have an uncommonly talented and dedicated team behind you. It's hard enough just to get the less-ambitious mods working or working together, much less to add new functionality or loads of new content.

There's a good reason why Priboi Story is still pretty much the only "total conversion" mod out there, and why most other teams have to be happy just to tinker around the edges of a game that they love.

Personally, I'd love to see this mod, or any other for that matter, to really take the game in a new direction. But I'll also be happy if it just keeps the game that I love a little more interesting and relevant through evolutionary changes.
  22:50:20  21 May 2009
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BAC9-FLCL
Senior Moderator
 

 
On forum: 04/10/2007
 

Message edited by:
BAC9-FLCL
05/21/2009 22:50:32
Messages: 8995
Btw, maybe it'll be better to move the discussion about "Oh, STALKER mods are developed in a wrong way" into a separate thread?
  23:06:38  21 May 2009
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AgentJR
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/08/2007
Messages: 107

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Don't even go there, noone here is "shooting down someone's work before it's even released".
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Stealth in Stalker is not possible by editing ltx, scripts and even ogg files. You simply can't do that right because like i said before, npcs won't react properly, but it's up to you to fiqure it out.
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I don't know, I think saying that features in a mod are impossible is akin to shooting down one's work.


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I see what you did there ... Indeed vanilla storyline is very interesting but not if you play it over and over again.
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I'm having no troubles with it, over 70 play-throughs under my belt now.


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And that is why we need new storyline mods. I just can't stand that you people can't see it, or maybe you don't want to or just don't care?
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If it's not a problem for us, then why would we need to change it? I can respect Priboi Story for the amazing amount of effort that went into making a whole new story, but not every mod needs to do the same.


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This community is stagnating, it stopped in one place and won't move forward.
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There's more than one way to move forward, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a new story.


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Take a look around, most soc mods, especially nowadays, are just slightly modified merged mods. In addition, cs mods are porting things from soc mods. It's just sad ... :\
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I prefer to think positively, that SHOC mods are just so damn well done that even CS can benefit from them.


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As a coauthor of Priboi Story I spent enough time (almost 2 years) on it, it's just boring for me as well as vanilla game is.
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Then perhaps this mod pack isn't for you. No one is forcing you to follow development and play it, after all.
  23:11:50  21 May 2009
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AgentJR
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/08/2007
Messages: 107

---QUOTATION---
I've read them. And, if you read my previous post, you'll understood why AI "dynamic light visibility" realisation with only config/script editing - is impossible nonsense
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I'm sorry, just because it hasn't been done before does not mean that it CANNOT be done. Once again, don't discount it before you have a chance to test it. I wonder how many other features that people have though impossible were implemented eventually?
  23:25:25  21 May 2009
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dezodor
level designer
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 04/08/2007
Messages: 3803
every little thing is possible, which does not require rewriting/editing the source code which we will never get from gsc. with some hex its possible to change little things in dll, numbers such as 0 to 1, but, that wont change the ai.

you should read an old interview, which was made with the ai programmer guy of stalker team ... pretty interesting (sorry dont have link atm, will check google for it)
  00:35:38  22 May 2009
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{imperialreign}
Звуковой Шаман
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 10/29/2008
Messages: 3075

---QUOTATION---
Stealth in Stalker is not possible by editing ltx, scripts and even ogg files.
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I beg to disagree over the .ogg comments. The major problem with vanilla was that the devs used a few "blanket" comments - there was no commenting based upon what type of sound it is, how far the sound would theorhetically be heard, how loud it should be, how far away should NPCs react to them, etc.

Again, the .ltx simply describes the base thresholds for NPC awareness for audio (and visual). But, having a threshold of 0.4 doesn't do any good when the commented base volume is set to 1.50, with a MAX AI distance of 300M . . . the NPC will "hear" and therefore react to the sound from halfway across a map.

Audio is a good part of the stealth equation. Again, download SoundEFX, do some stealthy operations, and see how NPCs react to just the actor footsteps. If you're moving while low-crouched, they won't hear you on most surfaces, even if they can't see you . . . try running, though, and they'll "hear" you and go to alert status and begin looking around (usually starting with "where" they head the sound originate from).

Same goes for weapon fire and equipment sounds - for balanced gameplay, NPCs should not be able to hear suppressed fire from any more than, say, 5-8M TOPS . . . but in vanilla, they can hear suppressed gunfire in Cordon while they're chillin' in the Garbage.

Changing the default NPC audio threshold levels in m_stalker won't make as much of a difference as if you re-comment the audio files - TBH, adjusting those values will cause such unbelievable NPC reactions . . . it's a difficult balance to achieve.




y'know - seeing as how the discussion of stealth continues to crop up left and right, and no one seems to take my points seriously - I've just decided that I'm going to release a modder's-resource "stealth" pack at some point in the near future that fixes this issue.




---QUOTATION---
STALKER really just doesn't seem to be moddable to that degree unless you have an uncommonly talented and dedicated team behind you. It's hard enough just to get the less-ambitious mods working or working together, much less to add new functionality or loads of new content.
---END QUOTATION---




I think that's part and partial to the problem as well - the vast majority of us modders tend to work on our own . . . for mods that are to the level that Priboi, Lost Alpha, AMK, SmP, SWO3, AAO1.8, - it requires quite a few users to be able to cooperate and work together . . . then you have to deal with conflicting schedules, differing view points and goals, and a whole bunch of other issues . . .
  01:08:23  22 May 2009
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Danlo
The Lazy Writer
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 10/21/2008
Messages: 5198
how about

it looks awesome and we will leave judgement on the stealth until we've played it and actually seen what it can do.
  06:43:17  22 May 2009
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Holden
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 05/21/2009
Messages: 232

---QUOTATION---
I recommend you to try the same thing at the daytime. AI will act in with the same blindness as at night
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As much as I appreciate your input and contributions BAC9, I'm afraid you're starting to test my patience. By implying that I haven't tested the AI during the day, you might as well be calling me an idiot. Of course I've tested such an obvious aspect, let alone the countless hours dedicated to isolating AI oddities, and subsequently fixing them, regardless of whether or not they were present in vanilla.

I'm honestly quite surprised that you're under the impression that they would act the same under different lighting circumstances. That's not even true in vanilla Stalker, let alone the foundation I've created for AI. The visibility_threshold dictates the amount of light rendered on the Actor and/or NPC B that NPC A requires in order to percieve the NPC B and/or the actor. Despite that variable being ridiculously low in standard Stalker, it was nonetheless prevelant. Meaning NPC's could perceive you visibly in practically an situation, you'd be hard pressed to find an area where there wasn't enough light under those circumstances.

There were many other factors that invalidated the prospect of stealth movement. As Imperial Reign thoughtfully pointed out, GSC used a broad blanket for Ogg files that created little to no differentiation in sounds emitted from the environment and/or the actor. Unfortunately the AI functions that NPC's carry out when perceiving sound from the actor have little to no differentiation from when they should actually view you, as in they'll actually fire accurately at you even in circumstances when the AI doesn't visibly perceive you. This of course was something I identified through countless sessions of trial and error.

There were many other functions that made inhibited the prospect of stealth, for instance, the difference in perception from what you actually consciously perceive on your screen, and what NPC's perceive in game. Obviously the very definition of AI is "Artificial Intelligence", which is a simulated form of intelligence meant to emulate that of a human, but the very concept of that leads you to the errors that these people, such as Kanyhalos and Dezoder obviously had difficulty realizing.

What you're referring to when you see NPC's behaving in a way that doesn't coincide with what you'd expect is merely a discrepancy between the parameters the AI is taking into account between that of what you actually perceive. You'd be very wrong in assuming that the AI doesn't have the groundwork laid for stealth, because there are more AI parameters in Stalker then I've seen in any other game to date. Unfortunately everything from your monitor output, to certain graphical outputting methods can create these discrepancies you'd perceive from how the AI is behaving.

Contrary to what you'd hear from GSC AI programmers, it's common knowledge that THQ cut development from GSC because of the time and cost involved in their the process, so they were forced to cut corners and cut features in place of actually spending the time to properly tweak the AI variables in order to create the AI they had envisioned originally, even things that only affect AI indirectly such the amount of light perceived at night from the user by default.

I by no means claim to be a better AI tweaker then a team of paid professionals, however it's a matter of time and effort, despite a certain amount of prerequisite knowledge needed in order to test the certain parameters. The fact is, you need to be organized, and approach it from a ground up perspective, and that's exactly what I did. I made it so the NPC could only function through one sense at a time, and gradually tweaked the setting in order to properly simulate the level in which the AI reacts to real life, in conjunction with regarding the way the environment affects these perceptions, such as fog, light rendered, etc..

Imperial Reign, your offer for support couldn't have come at a better time, however you should know that your support would require more investment then you might envision, seeing as how we need to completely overhaul the sound perception of NPC's, and thusly create ogg files that properly balance and scale to one another under these conditions.

If you still have your doubts BAC9, I'd suggest that you attend one of my upcoming live Xfire streams in order to sate your doubts. However until then I'd have to ask that you stop spouting this nonsense about making stealth impossible.

I almost forgot to address your post Trojanuch! I'm very happy that you brought light to these possible issues that you mentioned, because once I spent more time looking at them, I realized that you were completely right! I'm having issues where the weather transitions don't coordinate properly, and rain starts even when the sky is perfectly devoid of clouds! If I could recruit your assistance then I'd be very happy, for it would seem your knowledge of the Stalker weather configurations far exceeds mine obviously .

I'd also like to note that I'm a huge Stalker fan obviously, the atmosphere, the story, and the overall feeling is something I wouldn't dare change. I want to improve every aspect under those principles. As endearing your project is team dezowave, it doesn't coincide with the goal of our project, so I wish you would direct your suggestions for this mod taking that into account .
  07:10:47  22 May 2009
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Don Reba
Bishop and Councilor of War
(Moderator)

 

 
On forum: 12/04/2002
Messages: 11659
Sounds very good. Looking forward to the release.
 
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