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  19:35:37  17 May 2004
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 07/31/2003
Messages: 1729

---QUOTATION---
I agree with a lot of the points you raised there (e.g. Effort is very important), and I think at the very heart of the matter we may well be on the same wavelength.
I think one thing that stops a lot of people getting the deserved recognition for their work is an inability to present it adequetly i.e. a person with a great story in his head who can't write for crap. Personally, I have a very acute visual imagination, but you'll never see what's in my head out in the real world, simply because I can't draw, paint or model to save myself (though I've yet to try clay sculpting...hmmm[i/]).

There are times when I hate being able to disect certain things (theatre, film, even level design in a game) for it's technical merit. I much prefer being able to enjoy something for what it is, even if that involves a struggle with perspective.
I admit this may sound somewhat naive (an acusation that has been leveled at me many times in the past and I don't deny), but I'd rather be happy seing something for what it could be, than disapointed by something for what it isn't.
Naturally, I'm a lot harsher when it comes to my own work (as I asume most people are)

In the end I think there are a few area's that we'll have to agree to disagree on.

Oh, and Grisly, sorry for hijacking your thread.
---END QUOTATION---



We are on the same wavelength- I can't really draw myself, not to mention paint. And that freakin' school I was in years ago forced every student to take art, and so I manage to embaress myself everytime there was art class...
  08:59:05  17 May 2004
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Kristophan
(Senior)
 
On forum: 12/10/2003
Messages: 120
I agree with a lot of the points you raised there (e.g. Effort is very important), and I think at the very heart of the matter we may well be on the same wavelength.
I think one thing that stops a lot of people getting the deserved recognition for their work is an inability to present it adequetly i.e. a person with a great story in his head who can't write for crap. Personally, I have a very acute visual imagination, but you'll never see what's in my head out in the real world, simply because I can't draw, paint or model to save myself (though I've yet to try clay sculpting...hmmm[i/]).

There are times when I hate being able to disect certain things (theatre, film, even level design in a game) for it's technical merit. I much prefer being able to enjoy something for what it is, even if that involves a struggle with perspective.
I admit this may sound somewhat naive (an acusation that has been leveled at me many times in the past and I don't deny), but I'd rather be happy seing something for what it could be, than disapointed by something for what it isn't.
Naturally, I'm a lot harsher when it comes to my own work (as I asume most people are)

In the end I think there are a few area's that we'll have to agree to disagree on.

Oh, and Grisly, sorry for hijacking your thread.
  06:11:57  17 May 2004
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 07/31/2003
 

Message edited by:
Amoki
05/17/2004 6:12:24
Messages: 1729

---QUOTATION---
Actually- you can. Compare Picasso and the drawing of a 5-year-old. Although both have estatic values, which one makes the more money (even though both are incomprehensible )

The point I am trying very hard to make is- a story that want to have the criteria to be recognize and appreciate (not necessary top ton) needs to be good. It needs lots and intense dedication, good plot, and demand lots of time.

I'll pick an example. Neohunter a.k.a MARADVI a.k.a. writer of the STALKER chronicles.

His writing don't have style- simplistic English, which is both a mix of curse and blessing for him. He probably won't win because of the system, but... I can see he did put in effort. He had a plot. He tried characterization (the american who killed people ). HE was willing to spent time on his plot. He don't dare to cross too much of the line when it comes to weaponary. His story is the perfect example for my "stories with effort" section. Now, to a writer name Denso: (not a personal attack, please) - he has OICW in his story, a sure sign of illogical. He almost use his story to attack his ex-girlfriend (probably). His story is frighetningly short. His story has almost no plot that can be enjoying.

You are sort of correct when you say judging the story that makes you feel, but that is also the core of the contest problem When people sees the long dragging bar, they feel bad and decided to abandon reading and go for one instead. When they see Chode's messy jumble of work, they abandoned reading. When they see Ian C's story being lined up as the best, they dropped him a '1'. When everyone sees Ben Goldman's story being the best (by chance), lots and lots of '1' goes into his voting account. When Aleesandro Toffoli's work seems genuinely creative, yet he didn't have enough language skills to make it good, his votes stucks at 7 (not enough votes) because people can't (and won't) try to understand his work. Do you think you need more examples of 'judging a story with your feelings? Don't try me, I remember things.

When you have that problem, you create an influx of short stories that desperately try to grasp you attention because their story will make you feel better by their length. Only the serious ones: Ian C, Grisly Silence, me, Goodspeed, ChanSD5, Midnight Rambler, Neohunter, Andy Killian @ killziq, FranInc (yes, I've read your story), Duncan Gavin, Greg Martin, Barabra Miller, Dale Olivio, Nauris Krauze and even you, Derek Elsby, and a little few others deserves to be recognize for their effort, good plot, perhaps some interest and the hours invested to make your story good ones to be read by other. But look who's at the top ten?

Now you see the problem?

I don't have the "This story has great effort, great plot, great characterization, an almost flawless piece of writing. IT deserves to win" attitude. In fact, to be honest, I myself has no telling over who may win with the contest judging system. But fulfilling the criteria is one step that makes your story instantly judgeable and able to be marked by me as "top-quality" story. And when it comes to writing, even when everyone's writing style is the same (I know this!), in the end it all comes down to one thing: effort

I respect individuality, Kristophan. But let me tell you this: after you have finish reading all the contest entrees, you WILL see things differently. You will know how to dissect a story and know whether it deserves respect and recommendation. (Okay, you will not know who wins ) And I hope that one day, you will understand what I have been doing is a feat- because when you archieve a stage of reading when the length no longer matters to you in front of a 320X480 PDA screen, everything will be lay in front of you like the Book of Life in front of God's hand when Tribulation comes.

And that is why I am willing to come out with "The verdict" Thread- I want people to know that even though they may not win the story, there is someone out there in the 6 billion people in the world who read your story and recognize your work as a whole, not as a bunch of letters cramed in Verdana 10 font (or was it) in a html page.

Too bad no one else recognized mine.
---END QUOTATION---



Now, onto Ghose Recon!
  06:08:43  17 May 2004
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 07/31/2003
 

Message edited by:
Amoki
05/17/2004 6:09:43
Messages: 1729

---QUOTATION---
On reflection, I was perhaps a little harsh on you there, Amoki.
I don't think anyone would belittle the fact that you are probably the only person, not employed by GSC, to have read through the competition entries. You deserve all the recognition you get for that.

In context, judging a story using any of the methods you've mentioned is fair.
For the sake of a competition I guess it's acceptable to say, "Story A wins because it fulfilled criteria X, Y and Z."

The point I like to make is that this doesn't necessarily make story A any 'better' than any other story. I think a good story should be measured by how it makes you feel.*
This is much harder to judge simply because everyone is different.

To sum up: "You can't judge art, man!"



*Disclaimer: Getting anoyed with the story (as apposed to the events within the story) because of bad writting doesn't count.
---END QUOTATION---



Actually- you can. Compare Picasso and the drawing of a 5-year-old. Although both have estatic values, which one makes the more money (even though both are incomprehensible )

The point I am trying very hard to make is- a story that want to have the criteria to be recognize and appreciate (not necessary top ton) needs to be good. It needs lots and intense dedication, good plot, and demand lots of time.

I'll pick an example. Neohunter a.k.a MARADVI a.k.a. writer of the STALKER chronicles.

His writing don't have style- simplistic English, which is both a mix of curse and blessing for him. He probably won't win because of the system, but... I can see he did put in effort. He had a plot. He tried characterization (the american who killed people ). HE was willing to spent time on his plot. He don't dare to cross too much of the line when it comes to weaponary. His story is the perfect example for my "stories with effort" section. Now, to a writer name Denso: (not a personal attack, please) - he has OICW in his story, a sure sign of illogical. He almost use his story to attack his ex-girlfriend (probably). His story is frighetningly short. His story has almost no plot that can be enjoying.

You are sort of correct when you say judging the story that makes you feel, but that is also the core of the contest problem When people sees the long dragging bar, they feel bad and decided to abandon reading and go for one instead. When they see Chode's messy jumble of work, they abandoned reading. When they see Ian C's story being lined up as the best, they dropped him a '1'. When everyone sees Ben Goldman's story being the best (by chance), lots and lots of '1' goes into his voting account. When Aleesandro Toffoli's work seems genuinely creative, yet he didn't have enough language skills to make it good, his votes stucks at 7 (not enough votes) because people can't (and won't) try to understand his work. Do you think you need more examples of 'judging a story with your feelings? Don't try me, I remember things.

When you have that problem, you create an influx of short stories that desperately try to grasp you attention because their story will make you feel better by their length. Only the serious ones: Ian C, Grisly Silence, me, Goodspeed, ChanSD5, Midnight Rambler, Neohunter, Andy Killian @ killziq, FranInc (yes, I've read your story), Duncan Gavin, Greg Martin, Barabra Miller, Dale Olivio, Nauris Krauze and even you, Derek Elsby, and a little few others deserves to be recognize for their effort, good plot, perhaps some interest and the hours invested to make your story good ones to be read by other. But look who's at the top ten?

Now you see the problem?

I don't have the "This story has great effort, great plot, great characterization, an almost flawless piece of writing. IT deserves to win" attitude. In fact, to be honest, I myself has no telling over who may win with the contest judging system. But fulfilling the criteria is one step that makes your story instantly judgeable and able to be marked by me as "top-quality" story. And when it comes to writing, even when everyone's writing style is the same (I know this!), in the end it all comes down to one thing: effort

I respect individuality, Kristophan. But let me tell you this: after you have finish reading all the contest entrees, you WILL see things differently. You will know how to dissect a story and know whether it deserves respect and recommendation. (Okay, you will not know who wins ) And I hope that one day, you will understand what I have been doing is a feat- because when you archieve a stage of reading when the length no longer matters to you in front of a 320X480 PDA screen, everything will be lay in front of you like the Book of Life in front of God's hand when Tribulation comes.

And that is why I am willing to come out with "The verdict" Thread- I want people to know that even though they may not win the story, there is someone out there in the 6 billion people in the world who read your story and recognize your work as a whole, not as a bunch of letters cramed in Verdana 10 font (or was it) in a html page.

Too bad no one else recognized mine.
  21:58:05  16 May 2004
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Kristophan
(Senior)
 
On forum: 12/10/2003
Messages: 120
On reflection, I was perhaps a little harsh on you there, Amoki.
I don't think anyone would belittle the fact that you are probably the only person, not employed by GSC, to have read through the competition entries. You deserve all the recognition you get for that.

In context, judging a story using any of the methods you've mentioned is fair.
For the sake of a competition I guess it's acceptable to say, "Story A wins because it fulfilled criteria X, Y and Z."

The point I like to make is that this doesn't necessarily make story A any 'better' than any other story. I think a good story should be measured by how it makes you feel.*
This is much harder to judge simply because everyone is different.

To sum up: "You can't judge art, man!"




*Disclaimer: Getting anoyed with the story (as apposed to the events within the story) because of bad writting doesn't count.
  19:35:49  16 May 2004
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 07/31/2003
Messages: 1729
Besides. you know there is a major problem with research with the writer when he says the second incident occured at 1986 and the caliber of an AK-74 is a 5.45, isn't it? Look, I don'r memorize details of muzzle velocities and stuff, but the least the authors can do is to get the calibre correct and the details correct. You can read any books youi want at the library, and, top-seller or not, those stories had their plots consistent.

Or avoid talking about guns and dates at all, and focus entirely on storyline. This is, again (I am getting tired of saying this), where Ian C's and Midnight Rambler's story come in.

*sigh* Judging by the way most people comment at the review, I should say it is very impulsive (mood dependant actually). But just for a split second, consider my reviews , and most of the time you will realise that I comment with my head, not with my feelings.
  19:29:27  16 May 2004
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 07/31/2003
Messages: 1729

---QUOTATION---
BTW, Chan, using that method to distinguish good story between bad is how I got the stories in the Verdict. If you don't do that, most story usually looks the same, and I doubt that anyone could really come out with a good story without research. I also doubt that anyone can probably come out with a summary of good stories without using that method again.

Good stories usually either involves good information on gun OR no guns at all.
eg: Ian C's story had a guy who weld a Skorpion (Cz something), while Midnight Rambler's had no gun detail at all.



Personally, even though you have explained why you do so in previous threads, I think that's a terrible way to judge a story.
For all it's shortcomings I still think this story is better than a lot of others I have read.
---END QUOTATION---



Kristphan, it IS the only way to objectively judge the story, if you did try to read all the stories and come up with a list of top-quality stories. we have currently a bank of about 20X8= 160 stories, almost about 70% looks the same in plot (and length, to be honest). The rest of it either have outstanding plot or are better off in style and storyline. Now this is where it gets worse: 30% of 160 is 16X3 = 48 (more actually in my experience) that can come through your preliminary judgement. 48 and more! Let's says fifty. This bunch of fifties can easily be anyone one of the member of the top twenty (perhaps top ten). So because no one had actually read through the stories, I doubt the contest results will cmoe up fair and square.

The solution, is to judge them whether they (the writer) had done his research and homework or not, and to judge them by their plot. A very crucial key of looking for signs of research is seeing if they messed up details like when and where of Chernobyll and gun details.

But of course, when you do read through all the story (no sarcasm meant, I only meant well), you will also notice those bunch of people who tried hard to write a good story. That is why I came out with the "story with effort" part when I wrote "the verdict" thread.

Conclusion? I know it can be harsh when head will fall. I am truly sorry for those whom head I had to sack in trying to evaluate the problem. But life is tough- and most pf the time I did give comments of improvement, haven't I?
  10:43:57  16 May 2004
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Kristophan
(Senior)
 
On forum: 12/10/2003
Messages: 120

---QUOTATION---
BTW, Chan, using that method to distinguish good story between bad is how I got the stories in the Verdict. If you don't do that, most story usually looks the same, and I doubt that anyone could really come out with a good story without research. I also doubt that anyone can probably come out with a summary of good stories without using that method again.

Good stories usually either involves good information on gun OR no guns at all.
eg: Ian C's story had a guy who weld a Skorpion (Cz something), while Midnight Rambler's had no gun detail at all.


---END QUOTATION---



Personally, even though you have explained why you do so in previous threads, I think that's a terrible way to judge a story.
For all it's shortcomings I still think this story is better than a lot of others I have read.
  01:56:53  16 May 2004
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GrislySilence
Fanfic Reviewer
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 10/06/2003
Messages: 168
Just have a few comments on the comments.

1. I'm so used to knowing that an SVD is a Dragunov sniper rifle, that I just forgot to explain it to the reader.

2. Actually, I know that the G36 is an assault rifle, I have no idea why I wrote submachine gun.

Now you can comment on my comment of the comments.
  08:25:21  14 May 2004
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 07/31/2003
Messages: 1729
BTW, Chan, using that method to distinguish good story between bad is how I got the stories in the Verdict. If you don't do that, most story usually looks the same, and I doubt that anyone could really come out with a good story without research. I also doubt that anyone can probably come out with a summary of good stories without using that method again.

Good stories usually either involves good information on gun OR no guns at all.
eg: Ian C's story had a guy who weld a Skorpion (Cz something), while Midnight Rambler's had no gun detail at all.

 
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