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Valid forms of Critique? continued....

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  20:47:32  18 December 2005
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Fux0r666
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On forum: 06/04/2003
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Valid forms of Critique? continued....

---QUOTATION---
So basically you're saying that saying anything but the story is too long is just salad dressing? Because that's essentialyl what you're arguing. And to tell you the truth, that's like saying it's okay to call an African-American a "Black" or a "Negro" or even "nigger" in broad daylight just because that's what their skin colour is.

Forget being politically correct. Do you even know what polite means?
---END QUOTATION---


Amoki:

No, I'm not arguing it's salad dressing. Are you even listening? I said it's meaningful commentary that should be taken in along with all of the other comments and critiques that the writer receives- not just the ones he or she wants to hear. Whether or not they should be taken in to account for future works or revisions of the writer's present work depend on the writer's aims. That is up to the writer to decide. The big give away on that, asside from everything else I wrote, was the part about how everyone's opinions are valid, but it's up to the writer to decide how to appropriate them.

I don't think that you can adequately support the premise that calling Siro's story too long alludes is the same sort of rudeness or hatred that would inspire broad-daylight racial slurrs. That's an incredibly ludicrous argument and it certainly does not bother me one iota to say so. Oh Amoki, these attempts are so very quaint, and I love you for it, but seriously... one thing is bothering me. I don't know if they are attempts to blindly attack my argument by throwing anything you have on hand at it, or if it is just a vain attempt to understand it. Either way, I think that it would benefit both of us if you were to read what I have to say carefully and try to take into account ALL of the previous posts I've done on the subject, not just cherry pick one and try to crack it open.
  00:05:12  19 December 2005
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Amoki
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On forum: 07/31/2003
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I can't really be bothered to get into a minor argument like this. For one, I have better things to do than pouring over posts and posts and try to find a suitable argument.

Fux0r, just remember there are at least 4 individuals during the discussion which has problem with what you stand. That has to say something.
  00:37:21  19 December 2005
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Fux0r666
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On forum: 06/04/2003
 

Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/19/2005 0:39:06
Messages: 1927
They were noted. Their opinions are valid, and I do realise that critiques are often hard to swallow. However, the class I took in literary criticism, taught by a tenured professor and an active literary critic who has taught in one of the most prestigious universities in the world, disagrees with them.

I think that you think that this argument is minor because you do not understand it. Your last post was proof of that. I'm very sorry that we're not meeting on the same level, here.
  13:52:36  19 December 2005
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Amoki
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Well, when you're only half-awaken most of the time after screwing the computer for 8-10 hours playing Ground Control II straight you can't even think half-straight. Great game btw, reminds me why I still stick to strategy games all the time/

As for what your lecturer said, however prestigious he may be, literature is NOT science or mathematics and as so they may not necessary be a standardized format of critique. He may be a talented reviewer who really know the art of criticism; then again he might be someone who's so full of himself that he actively pick apart people like flak cannons shooting down an unarmed WWIII bomber. I don't really care. And the respect I have for him is that of everyone else until I come in contact with him, if ever.

Ian_C, the person who was debating with you days ago, actually graduated as a Bachelor in English Literature, from where I have no idea but I'm sure whoever taught him in his 4 years probably can stand toe to toe with your proffessor. He also attempted to go into journalism, and what he is up to so far I don't have any idea. But when he says he got years of experience under his belt he is definitely not kidding.

This is what I have come to grasp with what you;re saying so far:
1) your first and second posts deals with Robertino_It's rheotorical question to siro.
2) your 3rd post deals with Ian_C's comment of bias by saying all comments and reviews are bias one way or another. I responded by saying being bias is not the issue at hand - and it isn't.

His definition of bias btw, is being at either end of the good/bad scale. When he meant unbias he means looking at the story both ways.

3) your 4th post deals with my statement that bias is not the issue at hand by telling me that I'm retreating away from the bias topic towards constructive/destructive criticisms. You also raise the issue of most of our (hostile) attitude towards Robertino_It's post.

Let's not forget the fact that Robertino_It only declared Siro's work as being too long as that it is rubbish (he claimed that Siro has nothing better to do). He is not being bias, he is being downright disrespceful, and the fact that he did not even try to explain why he thinks the story is too long aside from a rough glance of the side scroll bar reiterates this.

4) Your 5th post deals with Ian_C comment which he claims "It's too long" is not a critique: you said it IS a critique, and whatever salad dressing you put on top it's essentially the same thing down at the bottom. Ian_C countered by saying again "It's too long" is not a critique, as it does not help the author.

You also said something like "If I were an author, any comment is appreciated regardless of how it is like." With all due respect, everyone here is a budding amateur fan-fiction writers who are constantly trying to work our buds off the win "S.T.A.L.K.E.R" the game - not proffesional writers or sorts, or a writing, we only need comment that contributes to future work. At least this is where I stand.

5) On your 6th post, this is the major content of what you have said:

---QUOTATION---
Another property of people's opinions, whether they are critics of your literary works or people you meet on the street, you can choose to embrace them or you can set them aside. This is your choice, be they good choices or bad ones. This does not mean that anyone's opinions are not valid when you are asking for the general public to review your work. It specifies only that you have a preference on whose opinions you choose to adopt, and whose you choose to dismiss.
---QUOTATION---


You raised a good point. However, let's not remember that what initiated this debacle is Robertino_It's statement, not a critique. Critique is an analysis supported with facts/opnions, but a statement is just a sentence of words. It's all right when someone says your story is too long and support it with his opinions - and this is the core of Ian_C's argument all along I believe. But when you're only saying 3 words dealing with nothing else but the length of the story that's not a critique at all.

Siro countered this by saying if everyone said nothing but "it's too long" it does no good to the author. Which, on your 7th post, you tell him he has an attitude problem (to put it bluntly) and that when people are telling an author that his work is too long all the time it probably means a warning to the author.

Doggydog then attacked your 7th post by stating that moaning over the length of the story itself is not a critique at all.

6) On your 8th post you said that if someone complained about your length of the story, then the content of the story itself is probably a strong deterrent to prevent people from reading on.

You also (keep) say (saying) that Robertino_it's "critique" wasn't well-embraced just because its content is "negative", and that real critique shouldn't be sugar-coated - that any critique is useful.

I pathetically said something regarding your 3rd or 4th posts: that I admit, it is irrelevant to the argument.
  13:55:43  19 December 2005
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Amoki
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Now that I have finally sit down and read everything all over, is there anything else you would like to add?
  23:19:49  19 December 2005
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Fux0r666
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Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/19/2005 23:20:42
Messages: 1927
Firstly,

cri·tique Audio pronunciation of "critique" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kr-tk)
n.

1. A critical review or commentary, especially one dealing with works of art or literature.
2. A critical discussion of a specified topic.
3. The art of criticism.

tr.v. Usage Problem cri·tiqued, cri·tiqu·ing, cri·tiques

To review or discuss critically.

From dictionary.com

It was a comment that was critical of an aspect of a literary work. Moreover, it was a part of a critical discussion. It was vaguely relevent to the art of criticism, therefore, it fits all of the definitions of the word 'Critique.'

I'll read your post more thuroughly later.
  13:13:57  20 December 2005
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Fux0r666
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It's a fairly good recap but you misrepresent me in a number of instances.

Firstly, I didn't say you should love everything everyone says, as the following would indicate:


---QUOTATION---

"If I were an author, any comment is appreciated regardless of how it is like."

---END QUOTATION---



Forgive me if my point wasn't clear. Let me reitterate. Given that everyone's opinion is valid under a certain set of biases, people's statements can often lead you to a truth you may not have considered before. ie. If you're writing for mass appeal, perhaps having someone as... basic... as Robert telling you it's too long might allude to the fact that you're unintentionally alienating a certain group of people. It can be helpful in so far as drawing one's attention to some bloat that could be done away with, or guiding a more streamlined approach in the future.

I find it odd that Ian C, with a degree in English, would insist that critiques must help the author. This is not a prerequisite of what a critique needs to be. Perhaps he meant to say that people should try to be more helpful on the discussion boards?

In response to your calling the legitimacy of Robterino's critique into question because he's a jerk, I don't really get how it devalues his statement. He's not going to win a popularity contest, that's for sure- but I think that it would be a more constructive reaction to dismiss his tone but not his content outright, and then his content fo you discover he's full of shit.

I didn't tell Siro that he has an attitude problem. I was telling him that Robertino's insult to his ego was what provoked his reaction. The issue was not whether or not what Robertino was saying was valid, it's whether or not it made Siro feel good/was provided with a helpful attitude/etc.

As for whether or not a statement can be a critique, let's analyse the statement. There are many hidden premises. I believe that it goes like this:

Conclusion: Siro's story is too long.

P1: Long stories are intimidating.
P2: A story's chief purpose is to be read.
P3: People won't read stories that are too long because they are intimidated.
P4: Good stories fulfill their chief purpose.
P5: Siro's story won't, because it is too long.

Therefore, Siro's story is too long.

There are a few ways you can go with this, but I think they would all just be less cheesy forms of this argument.

THe fact that Robertino is a jerk is not in question. The real issue is, I believe, whether or not people should be allowed to be jerks in the literary board.
  16:20:52  20 December 2005
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Arthur Gordon Pym
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On forum: 07/28/2003
 

Message edited by:
Arthur Gordon Pym
12/20/2005 16:27:18
Messages: 138

---QUOTATION---



I find it odd that Ian C, with a degree in English, would insist that critiques must help the author. This is not a prerequisite of what a critique needs to be. Perhaps he meant to say that people should try to be more helpful on the discussion boards?

In response to your calling the legitimacy of Robterino's critique into question because he's a jerk, I don't really get how it devalues his statement. He's not going to win a popularity contest, that's for sure- but I think that it would be a more constructive reaction to dismiss his tone but not his content outright, and then his content fo you discover he's full of shit.

I didn't tell Siro that he has an attitude problem. I was telling him that Robertino's insult to his ego was what provoked his reaction. The issue was not whether or not what Robertino was saying was valid, it's whether or not it made Siro feel good/was provided with a helpful attitude/etc.

Conclusion: Siro's story is too long.

P1: Long stories are intimidating.
P2: A story's chief purpose is to be read.
P3: People won't read stories that are too long because they are intimidated.
P4: Good stories fulfill their chief purpose.
P5: Siro's story won't, because it is too long.

Therefore, Siro's story is too long.

---END QUOTATION---



MY two cents - things are going over the edges, and it's lot of time since a community didn't have two moderators opening a topic for arguing on each other's opinion in a official forum.Fact is, i think you should realize that you're swimming in a glass of water if you're arguing such a normal thing like " a story being too long or too short".Take it easy, we're doing it for fun, and it's a long time since someone took it this way.

Fact is too, if the story is long or short, it's just a problem of the author that needed such amount of words to tell what he cared about.
I did put up a long story too before Siro's, and noone even posted to tell that it was too long - it was just ignored - why?
Cause simply people has the right to decide if they want to invest the amount of time in their day to read it - and their choice is not about the lenght of the story, is just about if they put faith in it and it will be worth the reading...like reading the first 10 phrases, and then decide to go on or to drop the towel.The author? shouldn't care, it's normal.The rude feedbacks? everyone got them, just see the comments on the stories in the official site.

And about the lenght:
A good 10 chapters story can be better then 10 average pointless stories.Then maybe 10 chapters would not be a short stroy anymore, but one like Siro's would be like 4 chapters, so it's enough for being a short one.

Robertino answered quite directly that the story is too long? he felt it, and that's is his opinion, that could be tought better of course, but it's his opinion: if anyone don't want to read mine for example, i just don't care, because it's obvious that noone still had faith in it or maybe had for a brief excerpt and then decided that he didn't liked it.Probably noone should point out it was too long, and the author should not feel like his ego was attacked in someway.
  21:10:30  20 December 2005
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Fux0r666
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On forum: 06/04/2003
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We're having an intellectual discussion about literary criticism. It's what people do sometimes. And, actually, I'm doing it for fun. I think the discussion is nearing the end, here, but I did enjoy it while it lasted.

Actually, we're not arguing whether it's too long or short, we're arguing about what is proper board etiquette when it comes to commenting on stories. I think at the end we're probably going to conclude that there's no rules but that there are social conventions that should guide your behaviour.

I agree that the author and other should not feel attacked. But does this mean that the authors need to grow thicker skin, or does it mean that people should have to follow guidelines to comment on a story?

One last thing, I'm sort of confused about your point about the moderators openning threads on each other's opinions. I'm not a moderator. Yeah, I tried again to understand but it's not happening.
  08:22:27  21 December 2005
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Amoki
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On forum: 07/31/2003
 

Message edited by:
Amoki
12/21/2005 8:27:47
Messages: 1729
The actual problem with is with our definition of the word "critique". And unless we can come to a clear understanding of the word "critique" itself we probably will be fretting over who did what continously.

You came out with a definition that suits what you purport as "the right one". This is what the Oxford Modern English Dictionary (1992) published by Oxford University Press UK) says of the word "critique" - and I believe none of us here are retarded enough to need to know how the word is spelt:

critique: n. & v.

-v. : a critical essay or analysis; am instance or the process of formal criticism.

-v.tr. (critiques, critiqued, critiquing) - discuss critically.


This is what the same dictionary says of "statement"

statement: n.
1. the act or an instance of stating or being stated; expression is words.
2. a thing stated, a declaration (that statement in unfounded.)
3. a formal account of facts, eso. to the police or in a court of law.
4. a record of transaction in a bank account etc.
5. a formal notification of the amount due to a tradesman etc.


I may not be studying in a prestigious university tenured by the best proffessors like you, but any valid tertiary education institution will prefer solid sources over "online" sources.

And by all means those definitions support my arguments the best: Robertino_it's statement is nowhere near a critique; rather it is at best a statement, at worst a comment. It's not 1) a critically discussed statement and 2) it's not an analysis. It's just a potshot from a newbie with not intention of helping the author improving.

I'm not sure whether you're trying to play devil's advocate or not. Critiques are not meant to be sweet music to the ears - which is a point you are consistently trying to prove, they are meant to be a (critical) analysis of the writer's work which is meant to be a source of which the author can improve himself. If you're arguing that a 2-word comment can be regarded as a critique when no whatsoever supporting argument is given, well, dream on.
 
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