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Valid forms of critique

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  22:33:19  8 December 2005
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Robertino_lt
(Novice)
 
On forum: 11/19/2005
Messages: 36

---QUOTATION---
Why do I get the feeling that no one will ever review my story? After all, other people are getting reviewed.
---END QUOTATION---




uh maybe because this is large like a bible or two maybe(dont you have something other to do than write such long stories?!?
  23:37:09  8 December 2005
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Ian_C
The man lacking a plan
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On forum: 08/02/2003
Messages: 273

---QUOTATION---

uh maybe because this is large like a bible or two maybe(dont you have something other to do than write such long stories?!?
---END QUOTATION---



Not really a fair way of putting it, but the length can seem intimidating in this format.

I'll review it tommorow Siro, haven't had much time as of late but I do want to offer feedback to everyone I can.
  15:12:45  9 December 2005
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Siro
Local Law-Enforcement
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On forum: 03/02/2005
 

Message edited by:
Siro
12/09/2005 15:15:17
Messages: 7378

---QUOTATION---
uh maybe because this is large like a bible or two maybe(don't you have something other to do than write such long stories?!?
---END QUOTATION---



Um, dude, there are stories a lot longer than mine out there.

Amoki is working on one that is guaranteed to be more than 30 pages. This one can be considered "short." Look on the site. Most of the good stories are the ones that are long.

And yes. I have a job. A girlfriend. A car. And a home.

Ian C

Thanks, dude. I really appreciate it.
  21:32:12  9 December 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
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On forum: 06/04/2003
 

Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/09/2005 21:33:04
Messages: 1927
Well, I guess that Amoki's won't be read by everyone then, either.

And... I don't think anyone was asking..
  21:49:18  9 December 2005
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Robertino_lt
(Novice)
 
On forum: 11/19/2005
Messages: 36

---QUOTATION---
uh maybe because this is large like a bible or two maybe(don't you have something other to do than write such long stories?!?

Um, dude, there are stories a lot longer than mine out there.

Amoki is working on one that is guaranteed to be more than 30 pages. This one can be considered "short." Look on the site. Most of the good stories are the ones that are long.

And yes. I have a job. A girlfriend. A car. And a home.

---END QUOTATION---




no short stories iz da best (truly it is)
  22:26:05  9 December 2005
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Siro
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On forum: 03/02/2005
Messages: 7378
It depends on the person. You can't really make an accurate generalization. And I will write however much I want.

And the reason I said that I have a girlfriend, a car, and a home was because Robertino It asked me if I had nothing else to do. That was my answer that I meant "yes, I am a normal person and I do have other stuff to do".
  00:14:24  10 December 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
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On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---
It depends on the person. You can't really make an accurate generalization. And I will write however much I want.

And the reason I said that I have a girlfriend, a car, and a home was because Robertino It asked me if I had nothing else to do. That was my answer that I meant "yes, I am a normal person and I do have other stuff to do".
---END QUOTATION---



I think the question was rhetorical, and I think that statements of preference kind of blow apart that generalization rule... considering he's not making a statement of scientific principle.
  15:56:19  10 December 2005
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Siro
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On forum: 03/02/2005
 

Message edited by:
Siro
12/10/2005 15:58:49
Messages: 7378
Good point. But still, some will still read it.

And this is not necessarily for people. It's for the contest.
  19:21:04  10 December 2005
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Ian_C
The man lacking a plan
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On forum: 08/02/2003
 

Message edited by:
Ian_C
12/10/2005 19:22:16
Messages: 273
Very good, solid and, for the most part, really put my mind in the scene I was reading. I grew a little disorientated during the action sequences but certainly not enough to really distract me.

Characters were developed in the style of a 1st person piece I found, with much focus on Semion but not so much on the men surrounding him. Although their discussion in the jeep did go some way to alleviating that I find it also helps to give each man their own mannerisms and behaviour as well as back-history, often little things can tell us much more than any elaborate speech.

I was a bit confused about the existence of the Soviet Union despite the timeline, but I guessed you'd gone with an 'alternate history' world in which the USSR never split up.

Technically speaking I have a handful of comments;

You sometimes use unecessary adverbs, like the two below:

'Semion asked curiously'

I understand what you were going for here, genuine interest as opposed to just polite interest, but it felt a little clumsy. If anyone asks something then, by default, they are curious. You could lose the 'curiously' and still be covered by your passage a little later that said 'Semion became interested' ( or something along those lines ).

'Masha said jokingly.'

I got the impression from this scene that she was acting mock-serious hence Semion staring at her in puzzlement, if she had said it jokingly then it would be obvious that the whole thing was a gag and he wouldn't be confused.

Only one instance of repetition that I found, but there could be more;

'The frozen lake seemed to be made of glass, no, marble. The cracks in it spiderwebbed, creating a marble-like effect'

I appreciate that this is a real bastard to pick up on, sometimes requiring more than one re-read. I've repeated descriptions within a sentence or two more than I care to remember in the past, just something to keep an eye out for.

Also an unecessary passage ( though the only one that I could see ), could be snipped to streamline the piece a bit more;

'The driver turned the keys in the ignition and the car started immediately.'

I had the feeling this bit wasn't necessary for example, they've all entered the jeeps so we can assume, barring any unexpected problems, they're going to start driving - you don't really need to point it out.

And, lastly, some pedants among your audience may point out the following:

Military Stalker groups are only up to five men.

As far as I can recall you had seven, though it's far from a fatal error so I personally wouldn't worry about it.

Despite these niggles I enjoyed it, it felt very....'authentic', hope these comments help.
  20:09:10  10 December 2005
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Siro
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On forum: 03/02/2005
 

Message edited by:
Siro
12/10/2005 20:11:56
Messages: 7378
Thank you very much.

It is a very pleasant experience to have your work reviewed by an un-biased person. Thanks to you, I will fix some of these errors and get a new version up soon.

Thanks one more time.

Oh, and the reason I needed to include the part where I said that the driver started the car was because the car stood still while they had the conversation.

P.S. Just curious, where are you from?
  22:30:25  10 December 2005
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Ian_C
The man lacking a plan
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On forum: 08/02/2003
Messages: 273
Ah, I didn't pick up on that bit with the car, fair enough.

I try to be unbaised so it's good to hear you thought my critque was that way. I've been on too many writing messageboards in the past where some bitter person tears your work to shreds ( literally failing to list any good points whatsoever ) then says 'hope to read more from you soon!', it's hard enough for any writer to gain the courage to put work out there without knowing there are people with knives deliberatly waiting in the wings.

I'm from the U.K, and it doesn't actually rain here as much as everyone says.
  22:49:02  10 December 2005
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Siro
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On forum: 03/02/2005
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Yeah, I know what you mean. As you can tell from the posts by other people on this thread.

I agree with you, sometimes you need to read a story twice, or repeat some confusing parts to understand them, such as the scene you talked about.

And I am from Russia. It does not snow here all the time and there are no polar bears. Nice to meet you.
  05:07:11  11 December 2005
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
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On forum: 07/31/2003
 

Message edited by:
Amoki
12/11/2005 5:16:57
Messages: 1729

---QUOTATION---
Ah, I didn't pick up on that bit with the car, fair enough.

I try to be unbaised so it's good to hear you thought my critque was that way. I've been on too many writing messageboards in the past where some bitter person tears your work to shreds ( literally failing to list any good points whatsoever ) then says 'hope to read more from you soon!', it's hard enough for any writer to gain the courage to put work out there without knowing there are people with knives deliberatly waiting in the wings.
---END QUOTATION---



Sounds a lot like me . Ian, not that most reviewers do it on purpose, when your reviewing a story after a hard day's work you don't tend to stay positive, let alone say positive words

BTW - you're promoted to become a permanent VIP by me. First thing is to further antagonize Siro, second is probably to recognize your contribution to the literary contest forum and also your seniority (if there is such a word that is)
  07:42:24  11 December 2005
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Fux0r666
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On forum: 06/04/2003
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Critical evaluation does not necessarily hint at bias. Moreover, being uncritical does not necessarily mean the reviewer is not biased. The hillarious thing is, that all of this moot, considering the critique of art is necessarily biased. The formal system of literary review necessitates the evaluation of a work based on certain biases. If you think it's possible to review fiction objectively with more depth than a spell checker, you're dreaming.
  08:39:09  11 December 2005
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Siro
Local Law-Enforcement
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On forum: 03/02/2005
Messages: 7378

---QUOTATION---
Ah, I didn't pick up on that bit with the car, fair enough.

I try to be unbaised so it's good to hear you thought my critque was that way. I've been on too many writing messageboards in the past where some bitter person tears your work to shreds ( literally failing to list any good points whatsoever ) then says 'hope to read more from you soon!', it's hard enough for any writer to gain the courage to put work out there without knowing there are people with knives deliberatly waiting in the wings.

Sounds a lot like me . Ian, not that most reviewers do it on purpose, when your reviewing a story after a hard day's work you don't tend to stay positive, let alone say positive words

BTW - you're promoted to become a permanent VIP by me. First thing is to further antagonize Siro, second is probably to recognize your contribution to the literary contest forum and also your seniority (if there is such a word that is)
---END QUOTATION---



Amoki, do you accept my entry into the contest?
  11:13:06  11 December 2005
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
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On forum: 07/31/2003
Messages: 1729

---QUOTATION---
Critical evaluation does not necessarily hint at bias. Moreover, being uncritical does not necessarily mean the reviewer is not biased. The hillarious thing is, that all of this moot, considering the critique of art is necessarily biased. The formal system of literary review necessitates the evaluation of a work based on certain biases. If you think it's possible to review fiction objectively with more depth than a spell checker, you're dreaming.
---END QUOTATION---



I don't think being biased is the problem at hand here (although you do score some points on it). Rather, it's of unconstructive (and potentially destructive) comments made by reviewers who tore up the hopeful work of a new-comer due to their own perception that they are better than everyone else. I did that a lot before given a harsh awakening by another forum member (he's gone now though). A critical review, by this forum's standard at least, means both good points and bad point are covered.
  15:11:19  11 December 2005
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Ian_C
The man lacking a plan
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On forum: 08/02/2003
Messages: 273

---QUOTATION---

I don't think being biased is the problem at hand here (although you do score some points on it). Rather, it's of unconstructive (and potentially destructive) comments made by reviewers who tore up the hopeful work of a new-comer due to their own perception that they are better than everyone else. I did that a lot before given a harsh awakening by another forum member (he's gone now though). A critical review, by this forum's standard at least, means both good points and bad point are covered.
---END QUOTATION---



Yeah, that's exactly what I mean.

Of course people's advice, even if well meaning, will be coloured by their own experiences and viewpoints ( that much should be taken as read, although we are veering dangerously close into a 'Mr Spock' style of analysis here that sucks the fun out of everything ), but to say that there is no such thing as destructive criticism is naive in the extreme.

As to other matters. VIP eh? I did wonder about that, does it grant me diplomatic immunity like the bad guy from Lethal Weapon 2?

I'll certainly be around here a bit more ( going to be posting up an alternate ending to 'the difference' soon ) and will comment on other people's work whenever I can, so hopefully that'll fufill this shiny title you've kindly awarded me.
  11:42:27  12 December 2005
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Arthur Gordon Pym
(Senior)
 
On forum: 07/28/2003
Messages: 138

---QUOTATION---

Not really a fair way of putting it, but the length can seem intimidating in this format.

---END QUOTATION---



Quote. Unfortunately i worte something too that's a little bit long but i think that sometimes it's nice to make something a little longer...too bad i am the first person that needs time to read such a long story of yours, i'll give it a shot tonight.
  01:29:26  13 December 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
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On forum: 06/04/2003
 

Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/13/2005 1:32:34
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---
Critical evaluation does not necessarily hint at bias. Moreover, being uncritical does not necessarily mean the reviewer is not biased. The hillarious thing is, that all of this moot, considering the critique of art is necessarily biased. The formal system of literary review necessitates the evaluation of a work based on certain biases. If you think it's possible to review fiction objectively with more depth than a spell checker, you're dreaming.

I don't think being biased is the problem at hand here (although you do score some points on it). Rather, it's of unconstructive (and potentially destructive) comments made by reviewers who tore up the hopeful work of a new-comer due to their own perception that they are better than everyone else. I did that a lot before given a harsh awakening by another forum member (he's gone now though). A critical review, by this forum's standard at least, means both good points and bad point are covered.
---END QUOTATION---



No, I think that this is where you're retreating to. Before there was discussion about how a review was biased because he preferred short stories. Now it's that he was too harsh, after the bias argument was rendered meaningless. Does the fact that he didn't sugar up his critique- by pouring over the thing looking for something to praise in order to render his comment more palatable- make it an invalid comment? LOL.

Anyways, it occurs to me that this thread is a little bit of a hijack. I should appologize, and invite this discussion on how comments should work on another thread.
  05:18:35  13 December 2005
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 07/31/2003
Messages: 1729

---QUOTATION---
Critical evaluation does not necessarily hint at bias. Moreover, being uncritical does not necessarily mean the reviewer is not biased. The hillarious thing is, that all of this moot, considering the critique of art is necessarily biased. The formal system of literary review necessitates the evaluation of a work based on certain biases. If you think it's possible to review fiction objectively with more depth than a spell checker, you're dreaming.

I don't think being biased is the problem at hand here (although you do score some points on it). Rather, it's of unconstructive (and potentially destructive) comments made by reviewers who tore up the hopeful work of a new-comer due to their own perception that they are better than everyone else. I did that a lot before given a harsh awakening by another forum member (he's gone now though). A critical review, by this forum's standard at least, means both good points and bad point are covered.

No, I think that this is where you're retreating to. Before there was discussion about how a review was biased because he preferred short stories. Now it's that he was too harsh, after the bias argument was rendered meaningless. Does the fact that he didn't sugar up his critique- by pouring over the thing looking for something to praise in order to render his comment more palatable- make it an invalid comment? LOL.
---END QUOTATION---



Sorry, don't quite get what you're saying.

Anyway, Don Reba is not in charge of this part of the forum in any way at all , and I'm declaring it's all right to discuss anything that's branching out from this thread.
  13:53:18  13 December 2005
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Ian_C
The man lacking a plan
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On forum: 08/02/2003
 

Message edited by:
Ian_C
12/13/2005 13:55:06
Messages: 273

---QUOTATION---


No, I think that this is where you're retreating to. Before there was discussion about how a review was biased because he preferred short stories. Now it's that he was too harsh, after the bias argument was rendered meaningless. Does the fact that he didn't sugar up his critique- by pouring over the thing looking for something to praise in order to render his comment more palatable- make it an invalid comment? LOL.

---END QUOTATION---



"It's too long" is not a 'critique', it's a disrespectful, throwaway comment which benefits no-one.

By all means state how you tried to read it but were unable to get past a certain point, then go on to explain how you prefer short stories and what you enjoy about them - this, at least, gives the author some idea of where you stalled out and why, giving them ideas they could impliment to streamline the piece more for that kind of reader.
  20:19:42  13 December 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
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On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---

"It's too long" is not a 'critique', it's a disrespectful, throwaway comment which benefits no-one.

By all means state how you tried to read it but were unable to get past a certain point, then go on to explain how you prefer short stories and what you enjoy about them - this, at least, gives the author some idea of where you stalled out and why, giving them ideas they could impliment to streamline the piece more for that kind of reader.
---END QUOTATION---



It is a critique, it is not a throw away comment. An important part of literary criticism is form. What you say at the bottom is the same as saying it's too long. And dude, just because you can read language doesn't make you Danielle Steel. If I was a writer, personally, I wouldn't really want every troll on the internet giving me suggestions as to how to accomplish my aims. It striking someone as too long is a useful comment in so far as someone thought that it was too long- enough said.
  21:41:19  13 December 2005
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SoulThief
(Novice)
 
On forum: 12/07/2005
Messages: 11
It may be critque but it doesn't help him,
As Ian_C stated try to more specific, I mean it's still in the catagorie opinions

YOU think the story is to long, what should he do about that, make a movie for you so you don't have to put the effort in reading it?

Noone actually ordered you to read the story, so I guess such comments should be kept to one self.
  01:40:55  14 December 2005
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Ian_C
The man lacking a plan
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On forum: 08/02/2003
 

Message edited by:
Ian_C
12/14/2005 1:41:30
Messages: 273

---QUOTATION---

"It's too long" is not a 'critique', it's a disrespectful, throwaway comment which benefits no-one.

By all means state how you tried to read it but were unable to get past a certain point, then go on to explain how you prefer short stories and what you enjoy about them - this, at least, gives the author some idea of where you stalled out and why, giving them ideas they could impliment to streamline the piece more for that kind of reader.

It is a critique, it is not a throw away comment. An important part of literary criticism is form. What you say at the bottom is the same as saying it's too long. And dude, just because you can read language doesn't make you Danielle Steel. If I was a writer, personally, I wouldn't really want every troll on the internet giving me suggestions as to how to accomplish my aims. It striking someone as too long is a useful comment in so far as someone thought that it was too long- enough said.
---END QUOTATION---



Heh, I get the feeling this debate will never end, but here we go.

Frankly it's utter rubbish to say that saying it's 'too long' is the same as pointing out where you lost interest, just that small point alone can help the author determine where their work might begin to sag, it all adds into reconsidering the framework/form. There are plenty of brilliant, long stories so obviously the length isn't the primary problem, we need more info to generate useful criticism.

Danielle Steel? Not sure where you're going with this but I'd gather it's a veiled insult implying that I'm getting ideas above my station. I have no illusions that I'm a successful author, but I do have a few years experience under my belt so I feel qualified to make tacit suggestions as to how others might improve their pieces - whether they chose to act on those suggestions is, of course, a matter of personal preference.

I'm baffled by the mention of trolling though, who's trolling?
  13:19:05  14 December 2005
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Siro
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On forum: 03/02/2005
 

Message edited by:
Siro
12/14/2005 13:21:37
Messages: 7378
Obviously I agree with Soulthief and Ian C, but please, stop hijacking my thread.

I would really appreciate it if only actual critiques would be in here. I apologize if this offends anyone, but do not debate it here.

P.S. If you say someone's work is too long, and also say what items are unneeded in the story, therefore helping the author make the story more interesting, that is a critique. Just saying that it is too long is disrespectful, and does not help anyone. If you enjoy short stories, then ignore the ones that don't tickle your fancy.
  06:50:02  15 December 2005
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Fux0r666
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On forum: 06/04/2003
 

Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/15/2005 6:51:04
Messages: 1927
Apparently the hijack is allowed. What can I say?

No, it was not an insult. Actually, Danielle Steel is a terrible writer of romance novels. Moreover, 'you' was the plural 'you', implying the general populace. This meaning can be gleaned from its contextual situation within the paragraph, especially when you take into account the bit about 'every troll on the internet.'

I don't know what could be cleaned out, revamped or excised. I didn't read it. It's too long... but I have no interest in reading any fiction generated here, to be honest. I am merely saying that this is a valid critique. It continues to be valid, but not helpful. I didn't realise that this was the objective of literary analysis. What you are asking here is for _help writing your stories_.

Another property of people's opinions, whether they are critics of your literary works or people you meet on the street, you can choose to embrace them or you can set them aside. This is your choice, be they good choices or bad ones. This does not mean that anyone's opinions are not valid when you are asking for the general public to review your work. It specifies only that you have a preference on whose opinions you choose to adopt, and whose you choose to dismiss.
  09:28:42  15 December 2005
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Siro
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On forum: 03/02/2005
Messages: 7378

---QUOTATION---
Apparently the hijack is allowed. What can I say?

No, it was not an insult. Actually, Danielle Steel is a terrible writer of romance novels. Moreover, 'you' was the plural 'you', implying the general populace. This meaning can be gleaned from its contextual situation within the paragraph, especially when you take into account the bit about 'every troll on the internet.'

I don't know what could be cleaned out, revamped or excised. I didn't read it. It's too long... but I have no interest in reading any fiction generated here, to be honest. I am merely saying that this is a valid critique. It continues to be valid, but not helpful. I didn't realise that this was the objective of literary analysis. What you are asking here is for _help writing your stories_.

Another property of people's opinions, whether they are critics of your literary works or people you meet on the street, you can choose to embrace them or you can set them aside. This is your choice, be they good choices or bad ones. This does not mean that anyone's opinions are not valid when you are asking for the general public to review your work. It specifies only that you have a preference on whose opinions you choose to adopt, and whose you choose to dismiss.
---END QUOTATION---



Very good point. But all it does is just piss the writer off if he does not ignore it and not like people flooding his thread with claims that it's "too long".

If you think a story is too long, then don't read it. Simple as that. You can comment on it and be an ass by saying it's too long. The real issue is etiquette here, rather than the validity of classifying "it's too long" as a critique.
  09:32:21  15 December 2005
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Fux0r666
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Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/15/2005 9:33:07
Messages: 1927
A strong showing of people telling you that it's too long should probably say something to you.

And no, it's an issue of your ego, not etiquette or of being an ass.
  10:45:29  15 December 2005
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
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On forum: 07/31/2003
Messages: 1729

---QUOTATION---
A strong showing of people telling you that it's too long should probably say something to you.

And no, it's an issue of your ego, not etiquette or of being an ass.
---END QUOTATION---




Yes, it tells people thoroughly about your (the reviewers) character, definitely.

Here is a man, who has not suffered any sort of serious and injurious verbal trashing yet.
  12:08:54  15 December 2005
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neo_doggydog
Resident President
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On forum: 06/15/2005
 

Message edited by:
neo_doggydog
12/15/2005 12:27:16
Messages: 190

---QUOTATION---
And no, it's an issue of your ego, not etiquette or of being an ass.
---END QUOTATION---



Aha, that explains it. So boldly grunting about the length of his story is considered a valid form of informative critique, but when someone asks that person to keep that kind of critique at a minimum (because, frankly, it seemed no more than a mindless grunt), it is them having an arrogant attitude? Ego? Selfishness? Reread that comment and imagine yourself to be on the receiving end. Who really has the biggest ego here? Just marching over Siro's story and moaning about its length.

When you write a comment for the story, what will it contribute? Will the writer actually gain anything from it? How could anyone possibly judge a story without even having read the actual story?

Next time you feel like writing something informative, Robertino_lt, try to consider how much it will contribute. If anything. If there's no contribution, your message should be labeled as 'spam' and be deleted as soon as possible. Keep in mind that the literary contest is the most 'serious' forum under STALKER, and comments like that aren't appreciated here. But then again, Siro should have posted this story in the right section, then Robertino's comment probably never would have been posted either. So, I guess fux0r has a valid point when it comes to that matter. The offtopic forum hasn't exactly been a very serious forum anyway, hasn't it?
  12:44:43  15 December 2005
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Fux0r666
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On forum: 06/04/2003
 

Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/15/2005 12:46:17
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---
And no, it's an issue of your ego, not etiquette or of being an ass.

Aha, that explains it. So boldly grunting about the length of his story is considered a valid form of informative critique, but when someone asks that person to keep that kind of critique at a minimum (because, frankly, it seemed no more than a mindless grunt), it is them having an arrogant attitude? Ego? Selfishness? Reread that comment and imagine yourself to be on the receiving end. Who really has the biggest ego here? Just marching over Siro's story and moaning about its length.

---END QUOTATION---



I am not here to critique the story, just to partake in the discussion about critiquing. A meta-critique, if you will.

I put much of my time into all sorts of projects that are open for the criticism of the general public. I've been on the receiving end of worse. It's best just to see if there's anything valuable in there and shovel the rest off like so much oafel.


---QUOTATION---

When you write a comment for the story, what will it contribute? Will the writer actually gain anything from it? How could anyone possibly judge a story without even having read the actual story?

---END QUOTATION---



Simply, if the length of the story is repulsive to some people, the length of the story, and comments thereon, are fair game.


---QUOTATION---

Next time you feel like writing something informative, Robertino_lt, try to consider how much it will contribute. If anything. If there's no contribution, your message should be labeled as 'spam' and be deleted as soon as possible. Keep in mind that the literary contest is the most 'serious' forum under STALKER, and comments like that aren't appreciated here. But then again, Siro should have posted this story in the right section, then Robertino's comment probably never would have been posted either. So, I guess fux0r has a valid point when it comes to that matter. The offtopic forum hasn't exactly been a very serious forum anyway, hasn't it?
---END QUOTATION---



I'd imagine that no comment short of a pat on the back would be well received. Let me reitterate that a critique isn't usually done for the benefit of the writer. It's such a strange situation to have a writer start a thread and ask for criticisms from random people. For the above, then, let's make it clear that what you are after is _help writing your stories_, and that serious criticism of any kind is not welcome so long as it isn't actually benefitting the writer... what you are looking for is the kind that is done with kidd gloves, and with a lollipop in hand, ready to offer.
  14:31:57  17 December 2005
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 07/31/2003
Messages: 1729
So basically you're saying that saying anything but the story is too long is just salad dressing? Because that's essentialyl what you're arguing. And to tell you the truth, that's like saying it's okay to call an African-American a "Black" or a "Negro" or even "nigger" in broad daylight just because that's what their skin colour is.

Forget being politically correct. Do you even know what polite means?
  12:40:00  18 December 2005
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Siro
Local Law-Enforcement
(Moderator)

 

 
On forum: 03/02/2005
Messages: 7378

---QUOTATION---
And no, it's an issue of your ego, not etiquette or of being an ass.

Aha, that explains it. So boldly grunting about the length of his story is considered a valid form of informative critique, but when someone asks that person to keep that kind of critique at a minimum (because, frankly, it seemed no more than a mindless grunt), it is them having an arrogant attitude? Ego? Selfishness? Reread that comment and imagine yourself to be on the receiving end. Who really has the biggest ego here? Just marching over Siro's story and moaning about its length.

When you write a comment for the story, what will it contribute? Will the writer actually gain anything from it? How could anyone possibly judge a story without even having read the actual story?

Next time you feel like writing something informative, Robertino_lt, try to consider how much it will contribute. If anything. If there's no contribution, your message should be labeled as 'spam' and be deleted as soon as possible. Keep in mind that the literary contest is the most 'serious' forum under STALKER, and comments like that aren't appreciated here. But then again, Siro should have posted this story in the right section, then Robertino's comment probably never would have been posted either. So, I guess fux0r has a valid point when it comes to that matter. The offtopic forum hasn't exactly been a very serious forum anyway, hasn't it?
---END QUOTATION---



Also, as specifically stated by Don Reba, if your post does not contribute anything whatsoever, it is spam. If your posts go off topic from the thread, it is spam.

These statements are not just Don Reba's opinions, they are the rules of the forum. Moderators, regardless of what section, have to enforce these rules. By not moving this discussion into a another thread, you are not enforcing the rules, Amoki. I have asked nicely that you keep only critiques on my thread. Please do not be biased against me by allowing this to continue on my thread.

The Literary Contest forum is a serious one, not one for flames and arguments like you're used to, Fux0r. When you post your own story, how would you like it if people start bashing it for no reason whatsoever?

Comments like "It's too long! It's boring! It's stupid! It does not make sense! You suck!" With no explanation whatsoever is basically what you are defending. This section of the forum is for stories, CRITIQUES, and other topics including literature.
  20:44:51  18 December 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---
So basically you're saying that saying anything but the story is too long is just salad dressing? Because that's essentialyl what you're arguing. And to tell you the truth, that's like saying it's okay to call an African-American a "Black" or a "Negro" or even "nigger" in broad daylight just because that's what their skin colour is.

Forget being politically correct. Do you even know what polite means?
---END QUOTATION---



Amoki:

No, I'm not arguing it's salad dressing. Are you even listening? I said it's meaningful commentary that should be taken in along with all of the other comments and critiques that the writer receives- not just the ones he or she wants to hear. Whether or not they should be taken in to account for future works or revisions of the writer's present work depend on the writer's aims. That is up to the writer to decide. The big give away on that, asside from everything else I wrote, was the part about how everyone's opinions are valid, but it's up to the writer to decide how to appropriate them.

I don't think that you can adequately support the premise that calling Siro's story too long alludes is the same sort of rudeness or hatred that would inspire broad-daylight racial slurrs. That's an incredibly ludicrous argument and it certainly does not bother me one iota to say so. Oh Amoki, these attempts are so very quaint, and I love you for it, but seriously... one thing is bothering me. I don't know if they are attempts to blindly attack my argument by throwing anything you have on hand at it, or if it is just a vain attempt to understand it. Either way, I think that it would benefit both of us if you were to read what I have to say carefully and try to take into account ALL of the previous posts I've done on the subject, not just cherry pick one and try to crack it open.

Siro:

I know, man. I'm sorry. I think this thing was truly mishandled by the moderator of this board. I was the first to suggest that spamming the hell out of the thread for a work of art that seriously must have took ages of blood, sweat and tears to weave together was way out of line. I think that this moderator was just taking the opportunity to have it on with me, but that's just between you and me. I seriously don't see the reason why this could not have gone on in another thread. I didn't expect the conversation to go on this long. I don't think this rather impotent board engine supports topic splitting, so I'll start another topic and c/p the last correspondance between amoki and I into the first post.

Watch Amoki consider this cross-posting
  13:54:27  19 December 2005
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 07/31/2003
 

Message edited by:
Amoki
12/19/2005 13:58:26
Messages: 1729

---QUOTATION---
And no, it's an issue of your ego, not etiquette or of being an ass.

Aha, that explains it. So boldly grunting about the length of his story is considered a valid form of informative critique, but when someone asks that person to keep that kind of critique at a minimum (because, frankly, it seemed no more than a mindless grunt), it is them having an arrogant attitude? Ego? Selfishness? Reread that comment and imagine yourself to be on the receiving end. Who really has the biggest ego here? Just marching over Siro's story and moaning about its length.

When you write a comment for the story, what will it contribute? Will the writer actually gain anything from it? How could anyone possibly judge a story without even having read the actual story?

Next time you feel like writing something informative, Robertino_lt, try to consider how much it will contribute. If anything. If there's no contribution, your message should be labeled as 'spam' and be deleted as soon as possible. Keep in mind that the literary contest is the most 'serious' forum under STALKER, and comments like that aren't appreciated here. But then again, Siro should have posted this story in the right section, then Robertino's comment probably never would have been posted either. So, I guess fux0r has a valid point when it comes to that matter. The offtopic forum hasn't exactly been a very serious forum anyway, hasn't it?

Also, as specifically stated by Don Reba, if your post does not contribute anything whatsoever, it is spam. If your posts go off topic from the thread, it is spam.

These statements are not just Don Reba's opinions, they are the rules of the forum. Moderators, regardless of what section, have to enforce these rules. By not moving this discussion into a another thread, you are not enforcing the rules, Amoki. I have asked nicely that you keep only critiques on my thread. Please do not be biased against me by allowing this to continue on my thread.

The Literary Contest forum is a serious one, not one for flames and arguments like you're used to, Fux0r. When you post your own story, how would you like it if people start bashing it for no reason whatsoever?

Comments like "It's too long! It's boring! It's stupid! It does not make sense! You suck!" With no explanation whatsoever is basically what you are defending. This section of the forum is for stories, CRITIQUES, and other topics including literature.
---END QUOTATION---



Actually, Siro, I saw nothing wrong with it. Everything being discussed here is vaguely or clearly linked to Robertino_It's comment on your work (as being too long), hence it is not considered spam (at least by my standard). In fact, his comment sparked this whole debacle. One way or another it's related to this thread. It's not being mishandled. Mishandling occurs, say, I suddenly decided to talk about Smirnoff and everyone start to join in and I do nothing to stop the topic from going further. Now THAT's mishamdling.

Hey, at least you get lots of posts around here!

BTW - a useful critique is in here somewhere, pg3 I think.
  23:24:15  19 December 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
 

Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/19/2005 23:25:10
Messages: 1927
I like it how saying that a work is too long, which is a valid opinion, short and completely on topic, is viewed as 'rude'- but a complete turn of discussion away from the author's work is viewed as legitimate by everyone but the person who started the conversation and the actual starter of the thread.
  20:37:14  20 December 2005
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Don Reba
Bishop and Councilor of War
(Moderator)

 

 
On forum: 12/04/2002
Messages: 11725
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