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Valid forms of critique

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  13:53:18  13 December 2005
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Ian_C
The man lacking a plan
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 08/02/2003
 

Message edited by:
Ian_C
12/13/2005 13:55:06
Messages: 273

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No, I think that this is where you're retreating to. Before there was discussion about how a review was biased because he preferred short stories. Now it's that he was too harsh, after the bias argument was rendered meaningless. Does the fact that he didn't sugar up his critique- by pouring over the thing looking for something to praise in order to render his comment more palatable- make it an invalid comment? LOL.

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"It's too long" is not a 'critique', it's a disrespectful, throwaway comment which benefits no-one.

By all means state how you tried to read it but were unable to get past a certain point, then go on to explain how you prefer short stories and what you enjoy about them - this, at least, gives the author some idea of where you stalled out and why, giving them ideas they could impliment to streamline the piece more for that kind of reader.
  20:19:42  13 December 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---

"It's too long" is not a 'critique', it's a disrespectful, throwaway comment which benefits no-one.

By all means state how you tried to read it but were unable to get past a certain point, then go on to explain how you prefer short stories and what you enjoy about them - this, at least, gives the author some idea of where you stalled out and why, giving them ideas they could impliment to streamline the piece more for that kind of reader.
---END QUOTATION---



It is a critique, it is not a throw away comment. An important part of literary criticism is form. What you say at the bottom is the same as saying it's too long. And dude, just because you can read language doesn't make you Danielle Steel. If I was a writer, personally, I wouldn't really want every troll on the internet giving me suggestions as to how to accomplish my aims. It striking someone as too long is a useful comment in so far as someone thought that it was too long- enough said.
  21:41:19  13 December 2005
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SoulThief
(Novice)
 
On forum: 12/07/2005
Messages: 11
It may be critque but it doesn't help him,
As Ian_C stated try to more specific, I mean it's still in the catagorie opinions

YOU think the story is to long, what should he do about that, make a movie for you so you don't have to put the effort in reading it?

Noone actually ordered you to read the story, so I guess such comments should be kept to one self.
  01:40:55  14 December 2005
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Ian_C
The man lacking a plan
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 08/02/2003
 

Message edited by:
Ian_C
12/14/2005 1:41:30
Messages: 273

---QUOTATION---

"It's too long" is not a 'critique', it's a disrespectful, throwaway comment which benefits no-one.

By all means state how you tried to read it but were unable to get past a certain point, then go on to explain how you prefer short stories and what you enjoy about them - this, at least, gives the author some idea of where you stalled out and why, giving them ideas they could impliment to streamline the piece more for that kind of reader.

It is a critique, it is not a throw away comment. An important part of literary criticism is form. What you say at the bottom is the same as saying it's too long. And dude, just because you can read language doesn't make you Danielle Steel. If I was a writer, personally, I wouldn't really want every troll on the internet giving me suggestions as to how to accomplish my aims. It striking someone as too long is a useful comment in so far as someone thought that it was too long- enough said.
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Heh, I get the feeling this debate will never end, but here we go.

Frankly it's utter rubbish to say that saying it's 'too long' is the same as pointing out where you lost interest, just that small point alone can help the author determine where their work might begin to sag, it all adds into reconsidering the framework/form. There are plenty of brilliant, long stories so obviously the length isn't the primary problem, we need more info to generate useful criticism.

Danielle Steel? Not sure where you're going with this but I'd gather it's a veiled insult implying that I'm getting ideas above my station. I have no illusions that I'm a successful author, but I do have a few years experience under my belt so I feel qualified to make tacit suggestions as to how others might improve their pieces - whether they chose to act on those suggestions is, of course, a matter of personal preference.

I'm baffled by the mention of trolling though, who's trolling?
  13:19:05  14 December 2005
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Siro
Local Law-Enforcement
(Moderator)

 

 
On forum: 03/02/2005
 

Message edited by:
Siro
12/14/2005 13:21:37
Messages: 7378
Obviously I agree with Soulthief and Ian C, but please, stop hijacking my thread.

I would really appreciate it if only actual critiques would be in here. I apologize if this offends anyone, but do not debate it here.

P.S. If you say someone's work is too long, and also say what items are unneeded in the story, therefore helping the author make the story more interesting, that is a critique. Just saying that it is too long is disrespectful, and does not help anyone. If you enjoy short stories, then ignore the ones that don't tickle your fancy.
  06:50:02  15 December 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
 

Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/15/2005 6:51:04
Messages: 1927
Apparently the hijack is allowed. What can I say?

No, it was not an insult. Actually, Danielle Steel is a terrible writer of romance novels. Moreover, 'you' was the plural 'you', implying the general populace. This meaning can be gleaned from its contextual situation within the paragraph, especially when you take into account the bit about 'every troll on the internet.'

I don't know what could be cleaned out, revamped or excised. I didn't read it. It's too long... but I have no interest in reading any fiction generated here, to be honest. I am merely saying that this is a valid critique. It continues to be valid, but not helpful. I didn't realise that this was the objective of literary analysis. What you are asking here is for _help writing your stories_.

Another property of people's opinions, whether they are critics of your literary works or people you meet on the street, you can choose to embrace them or you can set them aside. This is your choice, be they good choices or bad ones. This does not mean that anyone's opinions are not valid when you are asking for the general public to review your work. It specifies only that you have a preference on whose opinions you choose to adopt, and whose you choose to dismiss.
  09:28:42  15 December 2005
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Siro
Local Law-Enforcement
(Moderator)

 

 
On forum: 03/02/2005
Messages: 7378

---QUOTATION---
Apparently the hijack is allowed. What can I say?

No, it was not an insult. Actually, Danielle Steel is a terrible writer of romance novels. Moreover, 'you' was the plural 'you', implying the general populace. This meaning can be gleaned from its contextual situation within the paragraph, especially when you take into account the bit about 'every troll on the internet.'

I don't know what could be cleaned out, revamped or excised. I didn't read it. It's too long... but I have no interest in reading any fiction generated here, to be honest. I am merely saying that this is a valid critique. It continues to be valid, but not helpful. I didn't realise that this was the objective of literary analysis. What you are asking here is for _help writing your stories_.

Another property of people's opinions, whether they are critics of your literary works or people you meet on the street, you can choose to embrace them or you can set them aside. This is your choice, be they good choices or bad ones. This does not mean that anyone's opinions are not valid when you are asking for the general public to review your work. It specifies only that you have a preference on whose opinions you choose to adopt, and whose you choose to dismiss.
---END QUOTATION---



Very good point. But all it does is just piss the writer off if he does not ignore it and not like people flooding his thread with claims that it's "too long".

If you think a story is too long, then don't read it. Simple as that. You can comment on it and be an ass by saying it's too long. The real issue is etiquette here, rather than the validity of classifying "it's too long" as a critique.
  09:32:21  15 December 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
 

Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/15/2005 9:33:07
Messages: 1927
A strong showing of people telling you that it's too long should probably say something to you.

And no, it's an issue of your ego, not etiquette or of being an ass.
  10:45:29  15 December 2005
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 07/31/2003
Messages: 1729

---QUOTATION---
A strong showing of people telling you that it's too long should probably say something to you.

And no, it's an issue of your ego, not etiquette or of being an ass.
---END QUOTATION---




Yes, it tells people thoroughly about your (the reviewers) character, definitely.

Here is a man, who has not suffered any sort of serious and injurious verbal trashing yet.
  12:08:54  15 December 2005
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neo_doggydog
Resident President
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/15/2005
 

Message edited by:
neo_doggydog
12/15/2005 12:27:16
Messages: 190

---QUOTATION---
And no, it's an issue of your ego, not etiquette or of being an ass.
---END QUOTATION---



Aha, that explains it. So boldly grunting about the length of his story is considered a valid form of informative critique, but when someone asks that person to keep that kind of critique at a minimum (because, frankly, it seemed no more than a mindless grunt), it is them having an arrogant attitude? Ego? Selfishness? Reread that comment and imagine yourself to be on the receiving end. Who really has the biggest ego here? Just marching over Siro's story and moaning about its length.

When you write a comment for the story, what will it contribute? Will the writer actually gain anything from it? How could anyone possibly judge a story without even having read the actual story?

Next time you feel like writing something informative, Robertino_lt, try to consider how much it will contribute. If anything. If there's no contribution, your message should be labeled as 'spam' and be deleted as soon as possible. Keep in mind that the literary contest is the most 'serious' forum under STALKER, and comments like that aren't appreciated here. But then again, Siro should have posted this story in the right section, then Robertino's comment probably never would have been posted either. So, I guess fux0r has a valid point when it comes to that matter. The offtopic forum hasn't exactly been a very serious forum anyway, hasn't it?
 
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