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Valid forms of critique

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  09:28:42  15 December 2005
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Siro
Local Law-Enforcement
(Moderator)

 

 
On forum: 03/02/2005
Messages: 7378

---QUOTATION---
Apparently the hijack is allowed. What can I say?

No, it was not an insult. Actually, Danielle Steel is a terrible writer of romance novels. Moreover, 'you' was the plural 'you', implying the general populace. This meaning can be gleaned from its contextual situation within the paragraph, especially when you take into account the bit about 'every troll on the internet.'

I don't know what could be cleaned out, revamped or excised. I didn't read it. It's too long... but I have no interest in reading any fiction generated here, to be honest. I am merely saying that this is a valid critique. It continues to be valid, but not helpful. I didn't realise that this was the objective of literary analysis. What you are asking here is for _help writing your stories_.

Another property of people's opinions, whether they are critics of your literary works or people you meet on the street, you can choose to embrace them or you can set them aside. This is your choice, be they good choices or bad ones. This does not mean that anyone's opinions are not valid when you are asking for the general public to review your work. It specifies only that you have a preference on whose opinions you choose to adopt, and whose you choose to dismiss.
---END QUOTATION---



Very good point. But all it does is just piss the writer off if he does not ignore it and not like people flooding his thread with claims that it's "too long".

If you think a story is too long, then don't read it. Simple as that. You can comment on it and be an ass by saying it's too long. The real issue is etiquette here, rather than the validity of classifying "it's too long" as a critique.
  06:50:02  15 December 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
 

Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/15/2005 6:51:04
Messages: 1927
Apparently the hijack is allowed. What can I say?

No, it was not an insult. Actually, Danielle Steel is a terrible writer of romance novels. Moreover, 'you' was the plural 'you', implying the general populace. This meaning can be gleaned from its contextual situation within the paragraph, especially when you take into account the bit about 'every troll on the internet.'

I don't know what could be cleaned out, revamped or excised. I didn't read it. It's too long... but I have no interest in reading any fiction generated here, to be honest. I am merely saying that this is a valid critique. It continues to be valid, but not helpful. I didn't realise that this was the objective of literary analysis. What you are asking here is for _help writing your stories_.

Another property of people's opinions, whether they are critics of your literary works or people you meet on the street, you can choose to embrace them or you can set them aside. This is your choice, be they good choices or bad ones. This does not mean that anyone's opinions are not valid when you are asking for the general public to review your work. It specifies only that you have a preference on whose opinions you choose to adopt, and whose you choose to dismiss.
  13:19:05  14 December 2005
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Siro
Local Law-Enforcement
(Moderator)

 

 
On forum: 03/02/2005
 

Message edited by:
Siro
12/14/2005 13:21:37
Messages: 7378
Obviously I agree with Soulthief and Ian C, but please, stop hijacking my thread.

I would really appreciate it if only actual critiques would be in here. I apologize if this offends anyone, but do not debate it here.

P.S. If you say someone's work is too long, and also say what items are unneeded in the story, therefore helping the author make the story more interesting, that is a critique. Just saying that it is too long is disrespectful, and does not help anyone. If you enjoy short stories, then ignore the ones that don't tickle your fancy.
  01:40:55  14 December 2005
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Ian_C
The man lacking a plan
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 08/02/2003
 

Message edited by:
Ian_C
12/14/2005 1:41:30
Messages: 273

---QUOTATION---

"It's too long" is not a 'critique', it's a disrespectful, throwaway comment which benefits no-one.

By all means state how you tried to read it but were unable to get past a certain point, then go on to explain how you prefer short stories and what you enjoy about them - this, at least, gives the author some idea of where you stalled out and why, giving them ideas they could impliment to streamline the piece more for that kind of reader.

It is a critique, it is not a throw away comment. An important part of literary criticism is form. What you say at the bottom is the same as saying it's too long. And dude, just because you can read language doesn't make you Danielle Steel. If I was a writer, personally, I wouldn't really want every troll on the internet giving me suggestions as to how to accomplish my aims. It striking someone as too long is a useful comment in so far as someone thought that it was too long- enough said.
---END QUOTATION---



Heh, I get the feeling this debate will never end, but here we go.

Frankly it's utter rubbish to say that saying it's 'too long' is the same as pointing out where you lost interest, just that small point alone can help the author determine where their work might begin to sag, it all adds into reconsidering the framework/form. There are plenty of brilliant, long stories so obviously the length isn't the primary problem, we need more info to generate useful criticism.

Danielle Steel? Not sure where you're going with this but I'd gather it's a veiled insult implying that I'm getting ideas above my station. I have no illusions that I'm a successful author, but I do have a few years experience under my belt so I feel qualified to make tacit suggestions as to how others might improve their pieces - whether they chose to act on those suggestions is, of course, a matter of personal preference.

I'm baffled by the mention of trolling though, who's trolling?
  21:41:19  13 December 2005
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SoulThief
(Novice)
 
On forum: 12/07/2005
Messages: 11
It may be critque but it doesn't help him,
As Ian_C stated try to more specific, I mean it's still in the catagorie opinions

YOU think the story is to long, what should he do about that, make a movie for you so you don't have to put the effort in reading it?

Noone actually ordered you to read the story, so I guess such comments should be kept to one self.
  20:19:42  13 December 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---

"It's too long" is not a 'critique', it's a disrespectful, throwaway comment which benefits no-one.

By all means state how you tried to read it but were unable to get past a certain point, then go on to explain how you prefer short stories and what you enjoy about them - this, at least, gives the author some idea of where you stalled out and why, giving them ideas they could impliment to streamline the piece more for that kind of reader.
---END QUOTATION---



It is a critique, it is not a throw away comment. An important part of literary criticism is form. What you say at the bottom is the same as saying it's too long. And dude, just because you can read language doesn't make you Danielle Steel. If I was a writer, personally, I wouldn't really want every troll on the internet giving me suggestions as to how to accomplish my aims. It striking someone as too long is a useful comment in so far as someone thought that it was too long- enough said.
  13:53:18  13 December 2005
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Ian_C
The man lacking a plan
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 08/02/2003
 

Message edited by:
Ian_C
12/13/2005 13:55:06
Messages: 273

---QUOTATION---


No, I think that this is where you're retreating to. Before there was discussion about how a review was biased because he preferred short stories. Now it's that he was too harsh, after the bias argument was rendered meaningless. Does the fact that he didn't sugar up his critique- by pouring over the thing looking for something to praise in order to render his comment more palatable- make it an invalid comment? LOL.

---END QUOTATION---



"It's too long" is not a 'critique', it's a disrespectful, throwaway comment which benefits no-one.

By all means state how you tried to read it but were unable to get past a certain point, then go on to explain how you prefer short stories and what you enjoy about them - this, at least, gives the author some idea of where you stalled out and why, giving them ideas they could impliment to streamline the piece more for that kind of reader.
  05:18:35  13 December 2005
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Amoki
back with a vengeance
(V.I.P.)

 

 
On forum: 07/31/2003
Messages: 1729

---QUOTATION---
Critical evaluation does not necessarily hint at bias. Moreover, being uncritical does not necessarily mean the reviewer is not biased. The hillarious thing is, that all of this moot, considering the critique of art is necessarily biased. The formal system of literary review necessitates the evaluation of a work based on certain biases. If you think it's possible to review fiction objectively with more depth than a spell checker, you're dreaming.

I don't think being biased is the problem at hand here (although you do score some points on it). Rather, it's of unconstructive (and potentially destructive) comments made by reviewers who tore up the hopeful work of a new-comer due to their own perception that they are better than everyone else. I did that a lot before given a harsh awakening by another forum member (he's gone now though). A critical review, by this forum's standard at least, means both good points and bad point are covered.

No, I think that this is where you're retreating to. Before there was discussion about how a review was biased because he preferred short stories. Now it's that he was too harsh, after the bias argument was rendered meaningless. Does the fact that he didn't sugar up his critique- by pouring over the thing looking for something to praise in order to render his comment more palatable- make it an invalid comment? LOL.
---END QUOTATION---



Sorry, don't quite get what you're saying.

Anyway, Don Reba is not in charge of this part of the forum in any way at all , and I'm declaring it's all right to discuss anything that's branching out from this thread.
  01:29:26  13 December 2005
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Fux0r666
resident smart-ass
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 06/04/2003
 

Message edited by:
Fux0r666
12/13/2005 1:32:34
Messages: 1927

---QUOTATION---
Critical evaluation does not necessarily hint at bias. Moreover, being uncritical does not necessarily mean the reviewer is not biased. The hillarious thing is, that all of this moot, considering the critique of art is necessarily biased. The formal system of literary review necessitates the evaluation of a work based on certain biases. If you think it's possible to review fiction objectively with more depth than a spell checker, you're dreaming.

I don't think being biased is the problem at hand here (although you do score some points on it). Rather, it's of unconstructive (and potentially destructive) comments made by reviewers who tore up the hopeful work of a new-comer due to their own perception that they are better than everyone else. I did that a lot before given a harsh awakening by another forum member (he's gone now though). A critical review, by this forum's standard at least, means both good points and bad point are covered.
---END QUOTATION---



No, I think that this is where you're retreating to. Before there was discussion about how a review was biased because he preferred short stories. Now it's that he was too harsh, after the bias argument was rendered meaningless. Does the fact that he didn't sugar up his critique- by pouring over the thing looking for something to praise in order to render his comment more palatable- make it an invalid comment? LOL.

Anyways, it occurs to me that this thread is a little bit of a hijack. I should appologize, and invite this discussion on how comments should work on another thread.
  11:42:27  12 December 2005
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Arthur Gordon Pym
(Senior)
 
On forum: 07/28/2003
Messages: 138

---QUOTATION---

Not really a fair way of putting it, but the length can seem intimidating in this format.

---END QUOTATION---



Quote. Unfortunately i worte something too that's a little bit long but i think that sometimes it's nice to make something a little longer...too bad i am the first person that needs time to read such a long story of yours, i'll give it a shot tonight.
 
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