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Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines"

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  23:16:06  13 July 2014
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wrangler708
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/15/2007
Messages: 104
Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines"

So, I'm running from the helicopter in the car and I make it to the tunnels.
I go further in to get the mission where you find the entrance to the mines then go see Veles.

As soon as I get the mission, it fails and I get a message from Petrenko, I think, that I have pissed off SIN during my escape and somehow Voronin can fix this and something about joining "Dolg" which I assume is Duty.

So, I have seen Voronin, joined Duty, done the Duty mission, nothing at all about seeing SIN.

Did I break it somehow?
  23:22:37  13 July 2014
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SCAVENGER1
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On forum: 03/31/2007
Messages: 958
did you kill the SIN that was in cordon? when you had to save Fox from that group of SIN ? if you did that could be it
  23:36:35  13 July 2014
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wrangler708
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/15/2007
Messages: 104
Killed them the first time I played it and no problem..
Killed them this time and now it is problem???

Is there a way to get back on track?

Why would the game tell me to see Voronin to fix it?

Also, who is Ivancov? Voronin tells me I should go see him to get a good shooter but there is no mission.
  23:38:36  13 July 2014
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S3r1ous
Andres
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 04/29/2014
Messages: 1622

---QUOTATION---
Killed them the first time I played it and no problem..
Killed them this time and now it is problem???

Is there a way to get back on track?

Why would the game tell me to see Voronin to fix it?

Also, who is Ivancov? Voronin tells me I should go see him to get a good shooter but there is no mission.
---END QUOTATION---



Ivancov never existed as far as i can tell.
  23:40:24  13 July 2014
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SCAVENGER1
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 03/31/2007
Messages: 958

---QUOTATION---
Killed them the first time I played it and no problem..
Killed them this time and now it is problem???

Is there a way to get back on track?

Why would the game tell me to see Voronin to fix it?

Also, who is Ivancov? Voronin tells me I should go see him to get a good shooter but there is no mission.
---END QUOTATION---



since this new patch , it could be that killing those SINS would now cause troubles and i remember the last time this was mention that the devs said that you shouldnt kill them..

i am glad i didnt cause they were all yellow to me this time through. so i didnt have to walk on pins and needles ya know.. since the other patch they were all red so i had to watch my step alot.

only thing you can do is go back to that point of saving Fox and not kill them. i know that is a lot of hard work gone down the drain. but since you cant go any farther, you may have to..
  23:43:09  13 July 2014
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dezodor
level designer
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On forum: 04/08/2007
 

Message edited by:
dezodor
07/13/2014 23:43:27
Messages: 3803
killing sin is a problem, since they are part of the same faction, and if you kill some, the relations will change.

we even made them neutral to player, because there were players in previous patch who killed them even if it wasnt necessary (and could cause problems later)

joining duty also makes sin enemy to player.
  23:51:22  13 July 2014
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Steelyglint
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On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
Killed them the first time I played it and no problem..
Killed them this time and now it is problem???

Is there a way to get back on track?

Why would the game tell me to see Voronin to fix it?

Also, who is Ivancov? Voronin tells me I should go see him to get a good shooter but there is no mission.

Ivancov never existed as far as i can tell.
---END QUOTATION---



I'm pretty sure Ivancov is a Duty guy in a basement in the Rostock Factory map. It was well into the game before you met him. I haven't tried the new patch yet, so the name may have been given to another NPC or just the same NPC put somewhere else. He might even still be in his basement and awaiting your visit.

.
  23:56:10  13 July 2014
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wrangler708
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/15/2007
Messages: 104
Ah.
Well, I guess this playthrough is lost.

Heh. Lost. See what I did there.

I'm Stalkered out anyway.

Thanks!

Seems as though, at some point this was considered because along with the fail, I get that detailed transmission telling me that I should go see Voronin to fix this.

Also, I did notice that the guys guarding Fox were yellow this time. I went to each of them trying to get somebody to talk to tell me what I have to do to save Fox and none of them say anything. Fox don't say anything. So... I , kill them all and save Fox. He thanks me and we all go on our way.
I will tell you that, in addition to killing those guys, I made an unscheduled trip through the Forest just to look around and I'm pretty sure I remember finding a compound with some guys that were also SIN who I also killed. So...
Something should be done so that people don't lose hours upon hours upon hours of play time for these things that cannot be predicted to totally break the game.
  00:01:01  14 July 2014
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dezodor
level designer
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On forum: 04/08/2007
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there is only one of them who talks, and it was the same in all versions.
  00:05:35  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
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On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171
Just play the game as you would if it were real. You wouldn't just go around killing people for the hell of it. Especially if they had no designs on you. That's just terrorism or the acts of a psychopath.

Shoot those who shoot at you. The game will not punish you for that. It may well punish you for shooting neutrals and friends. That's just one of the ways that Stalker games differ from the usual FPS item - you can't just grab a weapon and kill everything you meet because doing so will inevitably kill your game before you get much further.

The Sin are a bunch of victims. They were experimented on in the labs, and all they are really trying to do is find some way to reverse what was done to them. Out here in the real world we would sue the ass off anyone who did such a thing to us. In the Zone they don't have that option. Strelok is right and showing his humanitarian tendencies by helping them.

.
  00:09:28  14 July 2014
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wrangler708
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/15/2007
Messages: 104
Must have missed him. Twice.
So, from your name and avatar, it would seem you are a primary person involved with this mod.
If so, let me begin with my thanks for all that you have done, it is a truly awesome accomplishment, and thanks for answering in my thread.

That said, let's say I had not killed any SIN. But I get to the bar and unknowingly join Duty. SIN is now an enemy you say. So this would also be game over??
  00:13:38  14 July 2014
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wrangler708
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/15/2007
Messages: 104

---QUOTATION---
Just play the game as you would if it were real. You wouldn't just go around killing people for the hell of it. Especially if they had no designs on you. That's just terrorism or the acts of a psychopath.

Shoot those who shoot at you. The game will not punish you for that. It may well punish you for shooting neutrals and friends. That's just one of the ways that Stalker games differ from the usual FPS item - you can't just grab a weapon and kill everything you meet because doing so will inevitably kill your game before you get much further.

The Sin are a bunch of victims. They were experimented on in the labs, and all they are really trying to do is find some way to reverse what was done to them. Out here in the real world we would sue the ass off anyone who did such a thing to us. In the Zone they don't have that option. Strelok is right and showing his humanitarian tendencies by helping them.

.
---END QUOTATION---


The SIN in forest were shooting at me. I am not a psychopath and I do play as I would in real life and have played all of the Stalker games for many hundreds of hours.
You cannot lay this at the feet of the player that the game can be broken so easily. I understand that you are probably a huge fan but blaming me will not make this better. The SIN had Fox tied up and my job was to get him free. If killing them was what I had to do, so be it. I wasn't truying to break the game. Many people have apparently also killed those same SIN so I am not unique psychopath as you would suggest.
  00:15:13  14 July 2014
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dezodor
level designer
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On forum: 04/08/2007
Messages: 3803
both triggers them to be enemy. previously relations file wasnt working fine, now it works (still not perfect though).
duty hates sin, you can feel it from the words of petrenko, or the other guys there, so if you join them just because you can (and because we did not add the pre-condition for it, which would only trigger to join duty when its not lethal for the story), then sin will really hate you for that move
  00:22:54  14 July 2014
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wrangler708
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/15/2007
 

Message edited by:
wrangler708
07/14/2014 0:24:12
Messages: 104
Ahh. Well. Should be a stronger message not to kill SIN or join Duty.
I know the Master Stalkers around here probably know all of this stuff but us regular Veterans need a little more guidance it would seem.

I really wish I had just stopped in the tunnel so I could still have that message that Petrenko sent me verbatim so I could relay it to you.

He sends me to Voronin specifically to join Duty. Like the game knew this could happen and seeing Voronin would start me on an alternate path.
  00:22:55  14 July 2014
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Charcharo
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On forum: 06/23/2009
Messages: 1175

---QUOTATION---
Ah.
Well, I guess this playthrough is lost.

Heh. Lost. See what I did there.

I'm Stalkered out anyway.

Thanks!

Seems as though, at some point this was considered because along with the fail, I get that detailed transmission telling me that I should go see Voronin to fix this.

Also, I did notice that the guys guarding Fox were yellow this time. I went to each of them trying to get somebody to talk to tell me what I have to do to save Fox and none of them say anything. Fox don't say anything. So... I , kill them all and save Fox. He thanks me and we all go on our way.
I will tell you that, in addition to killing those guys, I made an unscheduled trip through the Forest just to look around and I'm pretty sure I remember finding a compound with some guys that were also SIN who I also killed. So...
Something should be done so that people don't lose hours upon hours upon hours of play time for these things that cannot be predicted to totally break the game.
---END QUOTATION---



Whilst I do agree with what you are saying (The game DOES make the first encounter with Sin antaginistic, and presents killing them as an option; before any singular theme has been established), you did not look well enough. One of the Sin guys RIGHT NEXT to Fox offers you a solution... you did not ask him
  00:54:59  14 July 2014
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Tejas Stalker
Official Stalker on Facebook
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On forum: 05/12/2007
Messages: 28292
Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines"

In Testing, I would always go next door to the collapsed house next
to the Sin House in the Cordon. Some rats there would see me, I
would make them follow me to the Sin House and then step back
and watch the Sin members fight the rats. Usually 1 or 2 of them
would get killed providing some loot and an early AKSU or shotgun.

TS
  01:09:29  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
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On forum: 06/06/2009
 

Message edited by:
Steelyglint
07/14/2014 1:10:48
Messages: 5171
In the game prior to the new patch you are asked to go and free Fox from the Sin. When you get to them you are allowed into the house - by a group who are red enemies - and they don't attack you. So why should you attack them?

The guy standing right beside Fox, as Charcharo says, is the one to speak to. That is made obvious by the fact that none of the others has a dialogue option.

He tells you he wants something from Sid. You go and get it, return and they free Fox. That's the job you were sent out to do done.

If you return to that house after that they will shoot at you. They are, after all, red enemies, and you have no further business there as far as the storyline goes.

With the new patch the Sin are neutral. There is no situation, other than assassination missions (which a morally, ethically sound person wouldn't touch with a barge-pole) that involve shooting neutrals. Any neutral is usually someone that there is a way to turn into a 'green' friend. Shooting him just turns all his friends into enemies - building up the numbers of weapons likely to be aimed and fired at you is not a good survival tactic. And shooting neutrals is not an indication of anything but murderousness.

.
  01:09:54  14 July 2014
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Grenadier
(Novice)
 
On forum: 07/13/2014
 

Message edited by:
Grenadier
07/14/2014 1:17:46
Messages: 17

---QUOTATION---
Just play the game as you would if it were real. You wouldn't just go around killing people for the hell of it. Especially if they had no designs on you. That's just terrorism or the acts of a psychopath.

Shoot those who shoot at you. The game will not punish you for that. It may well punish you for shooting neutrals and friends. That's just one of the ways that Stalker games differ from the usual FPS item - you can't just grab a weapon and kill everything you meet because doing so will inevitably kill your game before you get much further.

The Sin are a bunch of victims. They were experimented on in the labs, and all they are really trying to do is find some way to reverse what was done to them. Out here in the real world we would sue the ass off anyone who did such a thing to us. In the Zone they don't have that option. Strelok is right and showing his humanitarian tendencies by helping them.

.
---END QUOTATION---



@steelyglint:
Well they are NOT that friendly. Very disrespectful these guys. They captured Fox. And you have to free him.
You can decide HOW you manage that.That is also an aspect of STALKER. "Absolute freedom within the game world" - They told us long ago
A simple phrase from sid will be enough: "Don't kill them rookie you may need them later."

Seems like you have to start a new game. I had the same Problem. I kept them alive with the first patch and killed them now with the second patch.
  01:17:44  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
Just play the game as you would if it were real. You wouldn't just go around killing people for the hell of it. Especially if they had no designs on you. That's just terrorism or the acts of a psychopath.

Shoot those who shoot at you. The game will not punish you for that. It may well punish you for shooting neutrals and friends. That's just one of the ways that Stalker games differ from the usual FPS item - you can't just grab a weapon and kill everything you meet because doing so will inevitably kill your game before you get much further.

The Sin are a bunch of victims. They were experimented on in the labs, and all they are really trying to do is find some way to reverse what was done to them. Out here in the real world we would sue the ass off anyone who did such a thing to us. In the Zone they don't have that option. Strelok is right and showing his humanitarian tendencies by helping them.

.

Well they are NOT that friendly. Very disrespectful these guys. They captured Fox. And you have to free him.
---END QUOTATION---



Had you been experimented on and found that your only way of extracting some of the information that might help to put things right from someone who doesn't really need it as you do (Sid), was to take a hostage and offer an exchange, that's what you'd do.

I doubt you'd be particularly friendly either. It was other people who caused the damage to you, so until you can be sure of their motives, any other people are suspect. And what's to respect about a world, a people, who do such things to each other?

.
  01:22:11  14 July 2014
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Grenadier
(Novice)
 
On forum: 07/13/2014
Messages: 17
@Steelyglint:
This is somehow getting a little bit...uhm...LOL?
You have to kill soldiers but why? They only do what their goverment wants them to do and they don't have any chance to change that. So this is really not ok. Why do you kill the dogs in game? They are not responsible for that what happend to them and if you were one of them you really would like some humen flesh...got it?
  01:25:03  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
Ahh. Well. Should be a stronger message not to kill SIN or join Duty.
I know the Master Stalkers around here probably know all of this stuff but us regular Veterans need a little more guidance it would seem.

I really wish I had just stopped in the tunnel so I could still have that message that Petrenko sent me verbatim so I could relay it to you.

He sends me to Voronin specifically to join Duty. Like the game knew this could happen and seeing Voronin would start me on an alternate path.
---END QUOTATION---



I would think that is the point, and the way it was meant to be. If you mess up with Sin, joining Duty - now you've shown your true colours - is the only option left.

You can go through the game as a neutral loner, help Sin and still keep Duty as at least neutrals. Or you can opt to have no compassion for the damage done to the Sin, refuse to help them, and join Duty who hate them. Either path will work, or should. It is your ethical outlook that decides which path you take.

There is a similar choice offered in vanilla CoP. You can remain neutral or you can take the ethically-devoid path of joining the bandits.

.
  01:28:37  14 July 2014
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Tejas Stalker
Official Stalker on Facebook
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On forum: 05/12/2007
Messages: 28292
Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines"

A good rule of thumb in LA is...

If an NPC is an enemy ( red ) and they don't try to kill you
then you should return the same courtesy. They may be
valuable at a later time. If an NPC is an enemy ( red )
and they try to kill you, you can defend yourself.
Be careful that their action is not based upon
you breaking their stated rules or that
you went somewhere that you
should have not. There
may always be some
consequences to
your actions.

TS
  01:35:16  14 July 2014
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burger
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On forum: 12/01/2008
 

Message edited by:
burger
07/14/2014 1:35:49
Messages: 1355

---QUOTATION---


Also, who is Ivancov? Voronin tells me I should go see him to get a good shooter but there is no mission.
---END QUOTATION---



I think hes on a roof in the bar area. There's someone on a roof (colonel inancov ?)that repairs weapons and stuff in the bar area after you talk to them.
  01:35:36  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
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On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
@Steelyglint:
This is somehow getting a little bit...uhm...LOL?
You have to kill soldiers but why? They only do what their goverment wants them to do and they don't have any chance to change that. So this is really not ok. Why do you kill the dogs in game? They are not responsible for that what happend to them and if you were one of them you really would like some humen flesh...got it?
---END QUOTATION---



Completely. But if the soldiers are shooting at you, and the only way to make them stop is by shooting back, that's what you do. They decided to make an enemy of you - it wasn't your decision. And even though they are under orders, they still have the option to refuse those orders if they consider them wrong. It will, of course, mean a court martial and time in the glasshouse, but that is a result of a military/government with no ethics or humanity.

Seems none of the soldiers in the Zone (save one in Agroprom in vanilla SoC) has the courage of his convictions. They are all 'bulletheads' who have no minds of their own, or no morality, which just means they'd probably be criminals if they were civilians. Criminals are those in society who have a serious lack of morals and ethics, after all.

As to dogs, that's a bit silly. Unless you are suicidal and enjoy vast pain, you are not going to let a dog chew on you because it might be hungry. You shoot the things to prevent that. Same goes for any mutant.

.
  01:37:58  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
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On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---


Also, who is Ivancov? Voronin tells me I should go see him to get a good shooter but there is no mission.


I think hes on a roof in the bar area. There's someone on a roof (colonel inancov ?)that repairs weapons and stuff in the bar area after you talk to them.
---END QUOTATION---



That's Captain Ivantsov. Ivancov is in Rostock Factory.

.
  01:56:45  14 July 2014
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Nite
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On forum: 09/25/2008
 

Message edited by:
Nite
07/14/2014 1:59:37
Messages: 1125
I'm seeing alot of people hitting this bug, and said they didn't kill the sin guys in cordon, however sometimes some random stalkers will walk past the sin house, thier is a fence full of rats next to the sin house, also it could have been the miltary sniper on the bridge that caused it. Any one of those could have caused the trigger to make the game think the player killed them which causes the mine to fail.

Maybe getting rid of the rats, setting a barrier to keep stalkers away from the sin house, and setting military to not kill sin would fix the problem.
  02:23:19  14 July 2014
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Grenadier
(Novice)
 
On forum: 07/13/2014
 

Message edited by:
Grenadier
07/14/2014 2:25:12
Messages: 17
@Steelyglint:
Since you obviosly won't get it:
It is totally senseless to debate about ethics or right or wrong in an area where nearly everybody is a criminal to a certain degree (for example taking hostages). Just consider the fact that all factions are only tolerated in the Zone. It is as simple as that.

The point is that if someone decides to kill the Sins in the beginning there is no way he could know how the story goes on. And thats the problem. That person simply can't finish the game.
Can I finish the storyline with the help of Duty? -Anyway I posted the bug I had with that decision.

Since they are only four (?) Sins in the house my suggestion is maybe to reduce the sensibility to react on this act if you kill them. Normally killing four Duties for example won't make you the worst enemy of them.
  02:48:40  14 July 2014
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Tejas Stalker
Official Stalker on Facebook
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On forum: 05/12/2007
Messages: 28292
Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines

I had repeatedly suggested to Dez0wave that it did not make any sense
for the Sin to remain in the Cordon after getting their flash drive. My
suggestion was to replace them afterward with some Bandits who
took over the house. Spawning and traveling Bandits going
there would allow the Player some action, some looting
and would solve the Sin members getting killed.
The temptation was just too great.

TS
  03:06:07  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
@Steelyglint:
Since you obviosly won't get it:
It is totally senseless to debate about ethics or right or wrong in an area where nearly everybody is a criminal to a certain degree (for example taking hostages). Just consider the fact that all factions are only tolerated in the Zone. It is as simple as that.
---END QUOTATION---



Oh, I get what you're saying. I can read English as well as write in it. You mention everybody being a criminal to a certain degree. It is your own ethics and morality that the game is putting under a microscope that decides the breadth of that degree.

It would appear that, far from all, no factions are tolerated in the Zone. None of them are supposed to be there - that's what 'Exclusion Zone' means. The military shoot at anyone because they're not tolerated there.

And nothing in Stalker games is 'as simple as that'. Any 'gun and run' type FPS allows of the indiscriminate killing of anyone or thing that can be killed. But in Stalker games you have to apply morality and ethics in order to find a correct path through the storyline. Your own experience should tell you that it is not ethically or morally right to kill the Sin - it seems to have taught you that by halting your progress through the storyline. What better evidence do you need?


---QUOTATION---
The point is that if someone decides to kill the Sins in the beginning there is no way he could know how the story goes on. And thats the problem. That person simply can't finish the game.
Can I finish the storyline with the help of Duty? -Anyway I posted the bug I had with that decision.
---END QUOTATION---



The first sentence is quite true. But had that player's ethics and morality prevented him from the indiscriminate murder of the Sin he would not have found himself in that position afterwards. Still, it should be possible to carry on with the game by joining the other Sin-killers, Duty. As with all Stalker games, there are many paths that can be followed. But if you play as a civilized, ethical human you will not encounter that problem. Getting it yet?


---QUOTATION---
Since they are only four (?) Sins in the house my suggestion is maybe to reduce the sensibility to react on this act if you kill them. Normally killing four Duties for example won't make you the worst enemy of them.
---END QUOTATION---



Unless they are 'green' friendly, killing a single Dutyer should make them your enemy. It certainly does in SoC. Even helping to get rid of Skull and his buddies in AW in vanilla SoC will turn Duty into enemies if they're not already solid 'green' friends to you. And Skull and co are disobeying Voronin's direct orders.

.
  03:06:54  14 July 2014
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Nite
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 09/25/2008
Messages: 1125

---QUOTATION---
Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines

I had repeatedly suggested to Dez0wave that it did not make any sense
for the Sin to remain in the Cordon after getting their flash drive. My
suggestion was to replace them afterward with some Bandits who
took over the house. Spawning and traveling Bandits going
there would allow the Player some action, some looting
and would solve the Sin members getting killed.
The temptation was just too great.

TS
---END QUOTATION---



I like that idea too, the sin in cordon are not needed past that point.
  03:23:46  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
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On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines

I had repeatedly suggested to Dez0wave that it did not make any sense
for the Sin to remain in the Cordon after getting their flash drive. My
suggestion was to replace them afterward with some Bandits who
took over the house. Spawning and traveling Bandits going
there would allow the Player some action, some looting
and would solve the Sin members getting killed.
The temptation was just too great.

TS
---END QUOTATION---



That would solve the problem of the player encountering difficulties with them later. But it would still catch out those trigger-happy ones who would rather kill than think.

Coming to LA directly from playing some shoot-em-up FPS puts one in the wrong frame of mind to deal with the intricacies of a Stalker game. A bit like spending the day decorating the town with graffiti, then coming home to try the Times crossword - you could be forgiven for just colouring in all the squares if your intelligence only usually stretches to vandalism.

Banksy types are a true rarity. Most graffiti is just vandalism.

.
  05:49:00  14 July 2014
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wrangler708
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/15/2007
Messages: 104

---QUOTATION---
Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines

I had repeatedly suggested to Dez0wave that it did not make any sense
for the Sin to remain in the Cordon after getting their flash drive. My
suggestion was to replace them afterward with some Bandits who
took over the house. Spawning and traveling Bandits going
there would allow the Player some action, some looting
and would solve the Sin members getting killed.
The temptation was just too great.

TS

That would solve the problem of the player encountering difficulties with them later. But it would still catch out those trigger-happy ones who would rather kill than think.

Coming to LA directly from playing some shoot-em-up FPS puts one in the wrong frame of mind to deal with the intricacies of a Stalker game. A bit like spending the day decorating the town with graffiti, then coming home to try the Times crossword - you could be forgiven for just colouring in all the squares if your intelligence only usually stretches to vandalism.

Banksy types are a true rarity. Most graffiti is just vandalism.

.
---END QUOTATION---


When you go to rescue Fox, this is the first time you see SIN.
How are we supposed to know all of the existential information about their hardships at this point?
They look and act like bandits.

Hell, I played the game all the way through already once and don't know even a third of the stuff your spouting.
At that point of the game, their is no way to know what the SIN are.
In previous Stalker games there s plenty of example of a faction being green or yellow then when you come up to them they go red or jack you up and steal all of your stuff.
???
  06:31:33  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines

When you go to rescue Fox, this is the first time you see SIN.
How are we supposed to know all of the existential information about their hardships at this point?
They look and act like bandits.
---END QUOTATION---



I'm not a prophet or a soothsayer, so I can only see as much of the future as anyone else. I took on that task in my first run through the game. But I'm not trigger-happy, so nobody died there. And everything went swimmingly when I had to go into Sin's cave/mine.


---QUOTATION---
Hell, I played the game all the way through already once and don't know even a third of the stuff your spouting.
---END QUOTATION---



What can I say? I pay attention and remember things. What else is needed? I managed almost three entire runs before something killed my game. Its hardly my fault if things didn't turn out well for you. Just maybe there are right ways of doing things and wrong ways.


---QUOTATION---
At that point of the game, their is no way to know what the SIN are.
In previous Stalker games there s plenty of example of a faction being green or yellow then when you come up to them they go red or jack you up and steal all of your stuff.
???
---END QUOTATION---



These are the vicissitudes of life in the Zone. They are what you have pitted yourself against by ignoring the 'Exclusion Zone - Keep Out!' signs. If you dangle your wedding tackle in a lion's mouth don't expect to be fathering kids beyond that experience, as the likelihood is that the lion will get a small meal and you'll be looking for a job in a harem.

.
  06:34:04  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171
Vanishing posts?

I feel the presence of a ghostly 'Councillor'.

Hi, Don.

.
  07:03:30  14 July 2014
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wrangler708
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/15/2007
Messages: 104
Well, you're obviously a very "special" Stalker there Steelyglint.
Bravo on your superior intellect and play style. (slow clap)

Btw... there is a new thread about this subject a few below mine.
I let him know you were on the way to educate him on how to play Stalker.

Anyhoo...

My contention remains unchanged and I hope the devs, whom I hold in high regard, will at least consider making a change in the future that will allow the less special Stalkers among us more latitude in their actions regarding the SIN at least early in the game where I contend, not enough info is available to the average player to avoid this circumstance.
Also, joining Duty shouldn't end the game either.

Thanks for all of your consideration.
  07:33:47  14 July 2014
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memeics
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 07/07/2014
 

Message edited by:
memeics
07/14/2014 7:34:22
Messages: 280

---QUOTATION---

My contention remains unchanged and I hope the devs, whom I hold in high regard, will at least consider making a change in the future that will allow the less special Stalkers among us more latitude in their actions regarding the SIN at least early in the game where I contend, not enough info is available to the average player to avoid this circumstance.
Also, joining Duty shouldn't end the game either.
---END QUOTATION---



Not being able to continue the main quest as Duty is a bug that should be fixed. However, killing people belonging to a faction and not expecting consequences is naive (in SoC and the other GSC games there are dire consequences for joining either Duty or Freedom which is why I never joined any of those). Always check on your faction relations and try to keep a minimum number of enemies.

Personally I killed the Sin capturing Fox too, but _after_ I negotiated his release (like other people are saying, I don't see a point to start and shoot NPCs that aren't shooting first). Then when the Stalker group attacks the Sin group at the house (the stalkers get killed pretty quick) I joined the fight on behalf of the stalkers because I feel I belong to that faction and they needed my help. This dropped me to -250 relationship with Sin but I'm still neutral so I continued the game and just got the mission from the Sin leader, it seems they are indeed neutral and will overlook my transgression for now.
  12:36:53  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
Well, you're obviously a very "special" Stalker there Steelyglint.
Bravo on your superior intellect and play style. (slow clap)

Btw... there is a new thread about this subject a few below mine.
I let him know you were on the way to educate him on how to play Stalker.
---END QUOTATION---



There is absolutely nothing 'special' about me. Nor do I consider my intellect to be 'superior', and my 'play style' is just that - mine. It could hardly be any other way since it is me playing.

It is said that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

As to the other post you mention, the OP of that has already stated that he has read this thread, even tossing out a 'LOL'. Pity you don't have a sense of humour.

.
  12:48:30  14 July 2014
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Charcharo
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/23/2009
Messages: 1175
"It is said that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. "

It is also said that Bioshock Infinite is a good game... yeah right

Yeah... anyways...
Whats with all these old people saying you keep using?
  13:35:33  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171
'Old people sayings'?

Well, not exactly that. They are just sayings, quotes, proverbs, expressions. Most have been in use for centuries.

Young people can use them, too. There are numerous for just about any subject. After all, humans have been around long enough to come up with expressions for anything.

The majority of them put their point very succinctly, which is why they get used and repeated for long periods of time.

.
  13:46:03  14 July 2014
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Tejas Stalker
Official Stalker on Facebook
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 05/12/2007
Messages: 28292
Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines"

"A clever person turns great problems into little ones and little ones into none at all.

Ancient Chinese saying ( really old )

TS
  13:51:10  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171
The Chinese were very good with them.

Confucius say God fights on side with heaviest artillery.



.
  14:29:44  14 July 2014
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Joubarbe
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/02/2009
Messages: 93
You can't explain a game design flaw by some ethic or morality... This is wrong, you should be able to kill everyone without fearing a game break. That's why in Elder Scrolls, either you have invulnerable NPCs, or a message saying that you've killed an essential NPC and you've broken the world. The latter seems a good solution for STALKER.
  14:30:18  14 July 2014
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Charcharo
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/23/2009
Messages: 1175
Its basically me saying I dont agree

No need to tell me something I know. I am just trying to somehow express "Дървен философ " in English. Seems like I am not there yet.
  14:31:20  14 July 2014
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Charcharo
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/23/2009
Messages: 1175

---QUOTATION---
You can't explain a game design flaw by some ethic or morality... This is wrong, you should be able to kill everyone without fearing a game break. That's why in Elder Scrolls, either you have invulnerable NPCs, or a message saying that you've killed an essential NPC and you've broken the world. The latter seems a good solution for STALKER.
---END QUOTATION---



Previous STALKER games were like that too you know .
Just start killing Wolf, Stalkers, Clear Sky, Duty Freedom....

You aint gonna finish
  16:25:23  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
You can't explain a game design flaw by some ethic or morality... This is wrong, you should be able to kill everyone without fearing a game break. That's why in Elder Scrolls, either you have invulnerable NPCs, or a message saying that you've killed an essential NPC and you've broken the world. The latter seems a good solution for STALKER.
---END QUOTATION---



Stalker games are different, to just about everything else there is.

Elder Scrolls is NOT a Stalker game.

Nothing further is needed.

.
  19:14:53  14 July 2014
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memeics
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 07/07/2014
Messages: 280

---QUOTATION---
You can't explain a game design flaw by some ethic or morality... This is wrong, you should be able to kill everyone without fearing a game break. That's why in Elder Scrolls, either you have invulnerable NPCs, or a message saying that you've killed an essential NPC and you've broken the world. The latter seems a good solution for STALKER.
---END QUOTATION---



I completely disagree with that assessment, that you should be able to kill everyone and the game should still work. I agree that some form of freedom and options should be offered (like I said, the bug where you report back to Voronin should be fixed so you can continue the main quest while being enemy with Sin and have joined Duty) but that doesn't mean you can now go and kill _anyone_ and still hope to not break the game. That's unrealistic and just childish.

And yes, I'm aware of TES (and other games that don't let you do this) but that aspect of those games I dislike. The fact that either NPCs don't matter of it they matter then they are immortal. Both of these break immersion and I find it as a problem in TES, clearly you find that as a strength. Look at Morrowind, it allowed you to kill everyone (and break your game) but it displayed a warning when you killed an NPC involved in the main quest.

Have you ever played Fallout1/2? How did it work for you that instead of talking and doing their quests you started killing every NPC?

I much more prefer that choices have consequences, and choosing to kill some NPC is a heavy choice, this is not that you said to someone that you don't like them, you killed them. Obviously it should bear heavy consequences (at least from the faction that character belongs to). This is not an arcade shooter game, it's a simulation of the Zone environment as portrayed after a second explosion and the consequences of that. It should try to be as realistic as possible within the game's world and rules and clearly shooting NPCs should have consequences in that world.
  20:01:05  14 July 2014
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wrangler708
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/15/2007
Messages: 104

---QUOTATION---
You can't explain a game design flaw by some ethic or morality... This is wrong, you should be able to kill everyone without fearing a game break. That's why in Elder Scrolls, either you have invulnerable NPCs, or a message saying that you've killed an essential NPC and you've broken the world. The latter seems a good solution for STALKER.

I completely disagree with that assessment, that you should be able to kill everyone and the game should still work. I agree that some form of freedom and options should be offered (like I said, the bug where you report back to Voronin should be fixed so you can continue the main quest while being enemy with Sin and have joined Duty) but that doesn't mean you can now go and kill _anyone_ and still hope to not break the game. That's unrealistic and just childish.

And yes, I'm aware of TES (and other games that don't let you do this) but that aspect of those games I dislike. The fact that either NPCs don't matter of it they matter then they are immortal. Both of these break immersion and I find it as a problem in TES, clearly you find that as a strength. Look at Morrowind, it allowed you to kill everyone (and break your game) but it displayed a warning when you killed an NPC involved in the main quest.

Have you ever played Fallout1/2? How did it work for you that instead of talking and doing their quests you started killing every NPC?

I much more prefer that choices have consequences, and choosing to kill some NPC is a heavy choice, this is not that you said to someone that you don't like them, you killed them. Obviously it should bear heavy consequences (at least from the faction that character belongs to). This is not an arcade shooter game, it's a simulation of the Zone environment as portrayed after a second explosion and the consequences of that. It should try to be as realistic as possible within the game's world and rules and clearly shooting NPCs should have consequences in that world.
---END QUOTATION---


In principal, I also agree with everything you have said here.
There should be consequences and it is really not fun without them, to an extent. I say again, to an extent.
That early in the game, with no evidence to the contrary, it should not be possible to break the game. In fact, in this case, you are almost tempted into shooting these guys. Before this patch, they were even red to you and dressed like bandits. In this case I think it is too much. At least for the average guy who cannot live on the forums learning every idiosyncrasy or lore fact.

The other kicker is how far you can go before you realize your hosed.
Just ain't right. imho
  20:15:21  14 July 2014
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Kane4
"Order of the Liquidators" and Dez0wave Tester
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/17/2008
 

Message edited by:
Kane4
07/14/2014 20:15:49
Messages: 12654
I think this is what happens when you join Duty before going to Darkscape, but if you can manage to sneak in behind Veles and talk to him, you can still get him to give you the mission, after which you complete will make Sin yellow.
  20:18:37  14 July 2014
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wrangler708
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/15/2007
 

Message edited by:
wrangler708
07/14/2014 20:32:02
Messages: 104

---QUOTATION---
I think this is what happens when you join Duty before going to Darkscape, but if you can manage to sneak in behind Veles and talk to him, you can still get him to give you the mission, after which you complete will make Sin yellow.
---END QUOTATION---




Ahhhhh,

Now this is the kind of information I am looking for.
I am guessing it has to be one of the side entrances because if you proceed down the tunnel where you get knocked out it gives you a Game Over message?

Going to try right now!!!


EDIT: No go. You get knocked out no matter what entrance you take.

Only fix I could see is if there is a way to raise your status with SIN before you go to Darkscape.
  20:48:23  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
Only fix I could see is if there is a way to raise your status with SIN before you go to Darkscape.
---END QUOTATION---



There is. Don't kill the ones in Cordon.


---QUOTATION---
In principal, I also agree with everything you have said here.
There should be consequences and it is really not fun without them, to an extent. I say again, to an extent.
That early in the game, with no evidence to the contrary, it should not be possible to break the game. In fact, in this case, you are almost tempted into shooting these guys. Before this patch, they were even red to you and dressed like bandits. In this case I think it is too much. At least for the average guy who cannot live on the forums learning every idiosyncrasy or lore fact.
---END QUOTATION---



Odd that you should so readily agree, as memeics has basically restated what I said that you found so much fault with.

There is no need to 'live on the forum' to pick up this information. It is right there in the game for you to find. Again, the easiest way to find it is to not kill the Sin in Cordon. I found that out in my first game, not here on the forum. Just another one of those idiosyncrasies you mentioned.

.
  20:54:29  14 July 2014
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Joubarbe
(Senior)
 
On forum: 04/02/2009
Messages: 93
Well guess what Steelyglint ? It's not about you ; it's about some players that do not agree with the fact that you can break the game so easily (join the Duty, and you're doomed). And that's how you design a game (especially in early access) ; you listen to the community.

Now I think they all well aware of these problems. Just wait the next patch, we'll see how they deal with it.
  21:45:40  14 July 2014
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SCAVENGER1
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 03/31/2007
Messages: 958
far as joining a faction, i havent done it this time and since i just got done with the secrete lab i am now green with duty lol and i still have a good rep as well

lol last patch i had a bad rep so this is play through is looking better lol
  21:58:34  14 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
Well guess what Steelyglint ? It's not about you ; it's about some players that do not agree with the fact that you can break the game so easily (join the Duty, and you're doomed). And that's how you design a game (especially in early access) ; you listen to the community.
---END QUOTATION---



Please point out where anyone, other than you, said anything was 'about me'. What is this need to aim your bile at me? I spend my time here as anyone else does - making posts and answering posts. If you don't like what I have to say, no-one is forcing you to read it, so just skip my posts. Pretty simple, huh?


---QUOTATION---
Now I think they all well aware of these problems. Just wait the next patch, we'll see how they deal with it.
---END QUOTATION---



The fact that joining Duty kills the game is a bug which will, undoubtedly, be fixed.

However, the game-breaker that was actually under discussion was about killing Sin in Cordon. Not joining Duty. That arrives as a consequence of killing Sin in Cordon, which there was never any need to do.

I am not responsible for the homicidal tendencies of others, be it in a game or out in the real world. Not killing them worked perfectly fine for me. But, then, I'm not hooked on murder for fun, preferring to respect the right of any NPC to his life - unless he endangers mine. The Sin didn't do that, so that would appear to be the way to go.

There was no-one there telling me that killing Sin would hurt my game. I found out as a consequence of having some moral basis to my character and acting upon it, even if it wasn't in a 'real' situation. They didn't shoot at me, so why would I shoot at them? Not doing that allowed me to see that they aren't really enemies, but victims. And Strelok is a character who does a lot of helping victims in all sorts of Stalker games and mods. It is called 'staying in character'.

Trying to force the Strelok character into the shape of an indiscriminate killer is bound to have adverse consequences. Every decision you make in a Stalker game involves, to some extent, ethics and morality. And the results are self-evident.

.
  23:53:46  15 July 2014
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Grenadier
(Novice)
 
On forum: 07/13/2014
Messages: 17

---QUOTATION---
Well, you're obviously a very "special" Stalker there Steelyglint.
Bravo on your superior intellect and play style. (slow clap)

---END QUOTATION---



Totally agree with that. Just let him stay in his own little world

There is definitely something to do with the Sins in Cordon. A simple story breaker in the first hour - nothing to do with morality or ethics.
  00:27:13  16 July 2014
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memeics
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 07/07/2014
Messages: 280

---QUOTATION---
There is definitely something to do with the Sins in Cordon. A simple story breaker in the first hour - nothing to do with morality or ethics.
---END QUOTATION---



I disagree. If you kill members of a faction in any RPG expect that to have consequences (usually in the form of making them enemies and not getting quests from them). In any RPG, if your intention is to maximize the number of quests done then make sure you don't upset anyone (which means avoid quests that ask you to kill people, focus on monsters, fedex quests, only kill NPCs after you've determined that doesn't have consequences that you're not prepared to deal with).

The game breaker is not that you killed the Sin guys in Cordon, the game breaker is the bug that doesn't allow you to forward the main quest by joining Duty. That bug is probably already fixed in the next patch that is supposed to be released in a few days.

Your options are to either restart the game and not make Sin enemies before you finish their quests, or fix the bug yourself (and post it here!) or wait for the next patch. The rest of the discussion seems rather pointless.
  00:35:36  16 July 2014
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Nite
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 09/25/2008
Messages: 1125
few days? I heard from Dezodor the team guy who makes the patch installer won't be back until end of july so it will be a few weeks at least before we see the next patch.
  00:40:11  16 July 2014
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memeics
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 07/07/2014
Messages: 280
That's what was said on another thread. I wouldn't hold my breath.
  00:59:11  16 July 2014
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dezodor
level designer
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 04/08/2007
Messages: 3803
grabbed the installer from git, so i can make it too. no need to wait. still we are trying to make it more playable: like the join duty will be hidden till its safe to join them, etc. but if you guys still kill the neutral sins in cordon, the others on darkscape will fuuuu on you
  01:04:37  16 July 2014
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memeics
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 07/07/2014
Messages: 280
Good news. I'm a software engineer (although Linux only) so if you need help with any tasks that you think could be handed over to someone without experience with STALKER modding/developing let me know (ex. I use Git at work every day).
  01:08:38  16 July 2014
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Nite
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 09/25/2008
Messages: 1125
damn next patch will be out sooner then I thought then lol, I'm up to the countryside right now in the storyline currently, I figured those that didn't get hit with the duty/sin bug would have time to finish at least once on 1.3002
  01:35:49  16 July 2014
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memeics
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 07/07/2014
Messages: 280
You worry that we'll need to start a new game with the next patch? I hope not
  01:39:23  16 July 2014
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Nite
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 09/25/2008
Messages: 1125

---QUOTATION---
You worry that we'll need to start a new game with the next patch? I hope not
---END QUOTATION---



Maybe.... If the spawns need to be changed to fix the duty / sin guys, that means editing the all.spawn file which means new game required.
  02:54:44  16 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171
Grenadier


---QUOTATION---
Totally agree with that. Just let him stay in his own little world

---END QUOTATION---



This IS my world and had been for more than five years before you showed up, rookie. And it isn't 'little'.

You are agreeing with, and applauding, a poster who had no further point to offer and so descended into personal digs and what he believed was insult.

Congratulations. You've been here all of five minutes and you've managed to drop yourself to his level.

I spend most of my time here answering questions from new Stalker players, helping to cure problems they meet in-game and generally trying to be pleasant, as I do outside of the net. I do the same thing on the Steam Stalker forum.

I hope, when you meet a problem, that I'm not the only one with the answer. If that happens you're not likely to get the assistance you need from this direction with the attitude you've shown with that post.

.
  09:00:31  16 July 2014
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Tejas Stalker
Official Stalker on Facebook
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 05/12/2007
Messages: 28292
Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines"

Steelyglint~

Not sure it's worth the time to explain to some of the newcomers
things like respect, deference and consideration. When dealing with
the younger generations, you will experience their disdain for anything
that does not serve their instant gratification and self-obsessed importance.

TS
  10:40:14  16 July 2014
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Grenadier
(Novice)
 
On forum: 07/13/2014
 

Message edited by:
Grenadier
07/16/2014 10:50:52
Messages: 17
@steelyglint:
It doesn't makes any sense to debate further with you about that. Even about that stuff about criminals you keep complaining and writing your ethics and morality speech. Just get a STALKER book and read it - you will find out how the zone works and that they are at least all criminals -no matter how friendly they are after, for example someone robbed another. We're are speaking of a GAME and you call people murder or accuse them for homicidal tendencies if they behave in a way which you don't like. This is totally awesome and very respectful from a guy who is really that long here and so adult. Again a GAME.

Nothing to say about this rookie nonsense...what did you call it? Childish?

I am out.
  11:25:20  16 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
@steelyglint:
It doesn't makes any sense to debate further with you about that. Even about that stuff about criminals you keep complaining and writing your ethics and morality speech. Just get a STALKER book and read it - you will find out how the zone works and that they are at least all criminals -no matter how friendly they are after, for example someone robbed another. We're are speaking of a GAME and you call people murder or accuse them for homicidal tendencies if they behave in a way which you don't like. This is totally awesome and very respectful from a guy who is really that long here and so adult. Again a GAME.

Nothing to say about this rookie nonsense...what did you call it? Childish?

I am out.
---END QUOTATION---



Of course you are a 'rookie' here. Unless you consider a three-day old membership of the forum to be worthy of 'Senior Resident' status. Had you held such status you might well have paused for thought and decided not to post what you did. So yes, I suppose a lack of experience on the forum could easily be likened to 'childishness'.

Stalker books do not need the kind of thought that is required when making decisions in the game as the only decision to make about a book is whether to read it or not. When a character in a book makes a decision it is impossible for the reader to change that decision. Such impossibility does not exist in the game.

I never directly called anyone 'criminal'. 'murderer', 'psychopath' or any of the other things such accusations have referred to, and that you perpetuated in your post. I stated that there is no requirement in the game to act in the fashion of such, and that doing so is, in effect, attempting to force the character 'Strelok' into a personality he simply is incapable of assuming. Therefore it is hardly surprising that doing so tends to spoil the game for those who do this. It has nothing to do with what 'I like' or otherwise.

The fact that every person in the game is inside the 'Exclusion Zone' and is, because of that fact, to some extent acting outside the law, is a point I made myself in a previous post. Seems at least something I said actually got through. Well done.

Yes, it is a game, only a game. But unless you act in certain ways, it breaks or makes continued play much more difficult. Those 'certain ways' are all about the decisions you make as you move through the storyline, and any decision involves ethics and morality - that's a fact of life, whether it be corporeal or cyber life, and especially important in the Stalker games. Every decision you make in the game informs the entire rest of the game, so at least some thought has to be applied.

.
  11:34:46  16 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
 

Message edited by:
Steelyglint
07/16/2014 11:52:11
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines"

Steelyglint~

Not sure it's worth the time to explain to some of the newcomers
things like respect, deference and consideration. When dealing with
the younger generations, you will experience their disdain for anything
that does not serve their instant gratification and self-obsessed importance.

TS
---END QUOTATION---



Damn. I wanted to use a quote, but I can't recall what it is from, nor the character who said it.

Something like... 'I taught it to him once. He has forgotten. So I will teach it to him again.'

Thanks for the support, though. Not much of that going around at the moment.

I try to avoid being a peacock - 'pride always comes before a fall' and such - but I am quite proud of the fact that, during all of the recent bile that has been aimed at me, I managed to never once descend into personal attack, abuse, insult or obscenity. Pity the same cannot be claimed by those serving up that bile.

I'm pretty sure the 'old hands' core of membership will out-survive it all, though. We won't even need armor in the game soon, as we have all acquired a bulletproof skin.

.

EDIT: I believe I just remembered where that quote is from. Stargate SG1.

I'm pretty sure it was Bra'tac talking about Teal'c after he'd been brainwashed by Apophis to believe he was still his 'First Prime'. Season 5, episodes 1 and 2.

.
  11:55:56  16 July 2014
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SCAVENGER1
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 03/31/2007
 

Message edited by:
SCAVENGER1
07/16/2014 11:57:11
Messages: 958
what is this membership thingy? and who been what longer?? ok im lost, or back into lost alpha that is and trying to figure out this swamp crash now i have grrr...


uhm i think i need a new avatar as well since what i have is on the old side..
  12:00:32  16 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171

---QUOTATION---
what is this membership thingy?..
---END QUOTATION---



Forum membership - which you have held longer than either me or TS. But I think one's post-count holds more importance.

.
  12:09:25  16 July 2014
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SCAVENGER1
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 03/31/2007
Messages: 958

---QUOTATION---
what is this membership thingy?..

Forum membership - which you have held longer than either me or TS. But I think one's post-count holds more importance.

.
---END QUOTATION---



hehehe yeah i know that, but you and TS have a lot of stuff going on in all 4 games so far. and TS with his "Order of the Liquidators" and all he will have a very high post count. as for me mine is low cause i have taken a yr or so breaks at a time with each game, well till LA came to be or when i found out it was out..

and now i am like a crack head and wanting my fix every day and into the weee hrs of the morning cracking out on LA

like right now it is just after 4am cst and im still playing or now i am trying to play but this swamp/doc crash has me against the wall
  12:29:39  16 July 2014
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Tejas Stalker
Official Stalker on Facebook
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 05/12/2007
Messages: 28292
Pissed off SIN... Failed "Go deeper into the mines"

Steelyglint~

Here's the short version of what I said ( a.k.a. tl;dr )
http://i.imgur.com/uUMLsRX.jpg

TS
  15:41:30  16 July 2014
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Steelyglint
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/06/2009
Messages: 5171
The 'oldies' are usually the best.

.
 
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