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  09:31:15  9 November 2004
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Harry-the-Ruskie
(Senior)
 
On forum: 10/07/2004
Messages: 75

---QUOTATION---


Combat shotguns were used by american soldiers in every theatre from the killing fields of the revolutionary war, to the trenches of WWI, to the Jungles of Vietnam (and they are still used today). During that time rifles have evolved from muzzle-loaded flintlocks, to bolt-action, heavy calibre slug-throwers to low-impulse, fully-automatic rifles... the shotgun has remained unchanged since the late 1800's. There have been a few attempts to load them from box magazines, etc, but none have been very popular. I don't know if there are going to be any worth-while quantum-leaps forward in shotgun design, especially considering that semi-automatics seem to have more than enough firepower on tap as they are.
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That's what I meant, but you put in much clearer language.
  15:18:28  9 November 2004
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---

LOL. It looks like things went full circle right back where they started. They were actually looking at something with a box magazine and assault rifle stock configuration.

Ah, well. Guess the program never really took off. In anycase they probably don't see how a shotgun will factor well into combat operations except maybe on close range assaults. Too niche for them I guess.
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They ll incorporated a pistol grip and telescoping stock.

http://www.usmcweapons.com/articles/M1014/benelli_m4_1.jpg

And the magazine capacity is between 7 and 8 rounds which is better than youd get from normal box magazines. Plus why use 30 million dollars to reinvent the same damn weapon.
  14:38:03  11 November 2004
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Harry-the-Ruskie
(Senior)
 
On forum: 10/07/2004
Messages: 75

---QUOTATION---


They ll incorporated a pistol grip and telescoping stock.

http://www.usmcweapons.com/articles/M1014/benelli_m4_1.jpg

And the magazine capacity is between 7 and 8 rounds which is better than youd get from normal box magazines. Plus why use 30 million dollars to reinvent the same damn weapon.
---END QUOTATION---



The last tube magazine weapon in mainstrem usage by the US armed forces was the Spencer carbine of 1860 vintage. The rifle to utilize a one-round reload was the Krag Jorgensen. Since then, every armed forces have universally adopted the box magazine, themain reason being quick and ease of reload during high stress situations and high volume firefights.

I don't know of many Marines today who would be happy with the idea of swapping a box magazine weapon for one weapon with a tube in firefight. Speed loaders like the TEC for shotgun tubes are not exactly easy to use even at the best of times, much less under stress. It is also an easy matter to design a larger capacity box magazine without altering the overall gun's design and you can still use the 'standard' size mags interchangeably if you so desire...something not so flexible with a tube magazine. Then also you have the even higher capaity drum magazines like the ones for the USAS 12.

You can argue that a tube system allows 'topping up' on the run. That's not really an advantage per se, it's more like a necessity for this type of system.

Given a semi-auto benelli with a pistol stock and tube system versus say the USAS 12 with box or drum magazines, I'd say the latter is probbly more suitable for the kind of high intensity military altercations.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Benelli and its kin are great sporting guns with a great rate of fire. I had the pleasure of trying out one not long ago and its simply awesome.

But in any case, I think perhaps the military has not much use for combat shotguns....effective range of fire much shorter than your assault rifle and with current military ops, there's probably not a whole lot than a shotgun can do which an assault rifle can't do better.

Anyway, thanks for an interesting discussion
  14:43:36  11 November 2004
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Harry-the-Ruskie
(Senior)
 
On forum: 10/07/2004
Messages: 75
Guys,

Speaking of sporting arms and accessories, what would be your recommendation for a good laser sight to go with a Ruger 10/22 ? Any particular brand or model I should be aware about ?

I have been using that my 10/22 for a while now. I never toyed with a laser sight before. I guess it would be something fun for some low-light plinking and also in conjunction with my NV goggles.

Cheers,

HTR
  15:05:50  11 November 2004
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---

The last tube magazine weapon in mainstrem usage by the US armed forces was the Spencer carbine of 1860 vintage. The rifle to utilize a one-round reload was the Krag Jorgensen. Since then, every armed forces have universally adopted the box magazine, themain reason being quick and ease of reload during high stress situations and high volume firefights.

I don't know of many Marines today who would be happy with the idea of swapping a box magazine weapon for one weapon with a tube in firefight. Speed loaders like the TEC for shotgun tubes are not exactly easy to use even at the best of times, much less under stress. It is also an easy matter to design a larger capacity box magazine without altering the overall gun's design and you can still use the 'standard' size mags interchangeably if you so desire...something not so flexible with a tube magazine. Then also you have the even higher capaity drum magazines like the ones for the USAS 12.

You can argue that a tube system allows 'topping up' on the run. That's not really an advantage per se, it's more like a necessity for this type of system.

Given a semi-auto benelli with a pistol stock and tube system versus say the USAS 12 with box or drum magazines, I'd say the latter is probbly more suitable for the kind of high intensity military altercations.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Benelli and its kin are great sporting guns with a great rate of fire. I had the pleasure of trying out one not long ago and its simply awesome.

But in any case, I think perhaps the military has not much use for combat shotguns....effective range of fire much shorter than your assault rifle and with current military ops, there's probably not a whole lot than a shotgun can do which an assault rifle can't do better.

Anyway, thanks for an interesting discussion
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... For some reason you think that i said that is the only weapon they carry... A shotgun is an entry only weapon. in an outdoor situation they carry an M4 with them... So its doubtful they will get into an indoor fire fight that lasts more than a minute. And if they doi, they can easily switch the the M4...
  01:37:44  17 November 2004
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Zig
Ye Oulde Zigge
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 11/21/2003
Messages: 315

---QUOTATION---
I don't know of many Marines today who would be happy with the idea of swapping a box magazine weapon for one weapon with a tube in firefight.
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[link]http://192.156.19.109/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/main5/95B4ED78B2D90FDD85256F2E006A4443?opendocument[/link]

there's one. higher res pix available at bottom of article.
  13:33:01  18 November 2004
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015
Oh you guys want pictures? alright

[link]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20041116/capt.sge.ghr10.161104090309.photo00.photo.default-384x278.jpg[/link]

[link]http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51752583.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=0F88D096635BE4405D827CE4BB13445BA9C30E9B9B114CE8[/link]

[link]http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51745326.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE9A21091711E5AD1EA81FC9B7D58F21E37757C85AE85A779B[/link]
  14:26:20  18 November 2004
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Road_Trauma
Resident now with a key!
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 08/21/2004
Messages: 259
I want this thing, if they got the FN2000 with its cutting edge scope then we can have a brand new kick ass sniper rifle with Infra Red sights. Right?

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn63-e.htm

Plus it a .108 so it aint as cumbersum as a .50 but more powerful than a .338 or .308.
  03:22:40  19 November 2004
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---
I want this thing, if they got the FN2000 with its cutting edge scope then we can have a brand new kick ass sniper rifle with Infra Red sights. Right?

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn63-e.htm

Plus it a .108 so it aint as cumbersum as a .50 but more powerful than a .338 or .308.
---END QUOTATION---



%|

You would never find ammunition for it. .408 is a crazy ass propritary round. Hell .308 lapua rounds are hard enough to find. And its just as heavy as a .50cal. there is no reason to have that weapon in this game.
  19:08:03  21 November 2004
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Zig
Ye Oulde Zigge
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 11/21/2003
Messages: 315
where's the guy who said no Marines would use a tube fed shotgun?
 
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